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Lodi, California

Pap, I've been wondering, do you till in your mycorr? A study shows that mycorr will stay dormant in the soil for several years. Here is a paragraph from the study.

How long do mycorrhizal fungi survive in soil? The spores of VA mycorrhizae are highly resistant and can live for many years in the absence of plant roots. When roots come near, they germinate and colonize the roots. Thus the shelf life of Agbio-Endos/Ectos can be years in some cases, but always at least two years. 

Thank you!

8/14/2013 10:02:02 PM

Farming- a bunch of catastrophies that result in a lifestyle

Tilling kills the mycorrhizae. Undisturbed they just continue to multiply. That's why its important to add the Myc after tilling. I've been doing a TON of research on this as my new patch for next year has been fallow for decades. I spoke with the folks out at Mycorrhizal Applications, Inc. They gave me some very good information on ENDO (90% of plants including pumpkins use ENDO mycorrhizae, the other 10% use ECTO) mycorrhizae, and how much to use. VERY helpful people. She also provided me with the contact for ordering it in smaller quantities: Barb Nyland 239-565-9741. I need a pound to do my entire patch, including the ounce on each root ball at planting and that's way more than needed! I don't know if this is high or low, but with shipping the pound is 42.00. Prolly cheaper in bulk, but I don't need that much- a little goes a long way: 1 pound will do an acre. They also sent me the plant listing for each type ENDO or ECTO, and some other literature. If anyone wants it, email me and I will forward the attachments. You can call Dana (female) at Mycorrhizal Applications, 866-476-7800. Damn nice folks out there.

8/15/2013 7:15:32 AM

Lodi, California

LB,

How many spores per cc/gram are in this product? Pumpkin pro is 80 spores per cc. On the pumpkin pro product, it lists that it can be tilled into the soil at 5 lbs per 750 sf. To my understanding tilling only disturbes mycorrhizae that has already germinated. Pumpkin pro, being dormant, will simply stay in the soil until a root comes to the mycorr or the mycorr simply dies after 2-3 years. That is just my thought.

8/15/2013 11:52:58 AM

Rhode Island

ashton

yes we till in our myco. always have and never had a problem that we know of.

have had tests done that show the myco effect on plant roots. so it does work after tilling----fur sure.

pap

8/15/2013 1:15:41 PM

Lodi, California

Pap,

How much do you use per x square feet? Thank you!

8/15/2013 1:18:04 PM

Farming- a bunch of catastrophies that result in a lifestyle

I copied the following directly from the pdf she sent me, please understand, I really wasn't just talking out of my ass. :)


MycoApply® Micronized Endo mycorrhizal micronized powder inoculum consists of a 4 species blend of spores of arbuscular
mycorrhizal fungi (endomycorrhizal fungi). The powder comes in a particle size less than 300 microns (#50 screen). About
90% of the world’s plant species form mycorrhizae with these beneficial endomycorrhizal fungi. These beneficial fungi colonize
plant roots, expand into the surrounding soil and greatly increase the root’s ability to absorb water and nutrients, while
improving plant yields and health.
Certain modern agricultural practices,
including some common management
methods, are known to suppress
the biological activity in soils. Populations
of soil microbes are lost when the
land is cleared and turned over during
tillage. Soil fumigation, fungicide use,
cultivation, compaction, soil erosion and
periods of fallow are all factors that can
adversely affect populations of beneficial
soil organisms.
Most research on soil disturbance effects
has focused on mycorrhizal fungi.
Soil testing worldwide indicates that many
intensively managed croplands lack
adequate populations of mycorrhizal
fungi. Fallow soil is first and foremost
among the causes for the demise of the
mycorrhizal relationship. Remember,
these fungi are dependent on their host
plants for sustenance and cannot survive
for any extended duration without the
partnership of living roots. Field preparation
prior to planting usually involves
thorough tilling and sometimes fumigation
and generally leads to a fallow condition
that, in turn, eliminates the fungi.

8/15/2013 4:25:50 PM

Germany

Cannot read that TILLING does disturn MYCO. There is a list of things, but no explicit instruction which unequivocally relates the one to the other.
Let us start here:
"Certain modern agricultural practices, including some common management methods, are known to suppress the biological activity in soils. Populations of soil microbes are lost when the land is cleared and turned over during
tillage."

I agree, because some populations of soil microbes will be lost when the land is cleared (no matter if turned over during tillage or not).

Now let us continue here:

"Most research on soil disturbance effects has focused on mycorrhizal fungi. Soil testing worldwide indicates that many intensively managed croplands lack adequate populations of mycorrhizal fungi."

Definitely true. Most likely because of various fungicidals used. (At least, in this part it is not pointed out that the lack of myco is related to the procedure of tilling, right?)

and finally here:

"Field preparation prior to planting usually involves
thorough tilling and sometimes fumigation and generally leads to a fallow condition that, in turn, eliminates the fungi."

Again, I agree that the fallow condition might reduce myco activity. Yes. But it is not said that it is because of tilling.

Summary: Avoid fallow conditions. Add myco, till it in and plant an appropriate cover crop (e.g., rye) to activate the myco spores. If tilling would kill myco spores, then you should also be aware that impacts such as shaking the myco bottle would have similar effects (by means of physical impact).

8/15/2013 4:41:44 PM

Germany

ooops, typo, in first line it should read DISTURB, not DISTURN. Sorry.

8/15/2013 4:42:18 PM

Seattle, WA

Since mycorrhiza is a root symbiant, why would you want to till it in when you can apply it directly to the roots of your plant? The mycorrhizae will grow with the root. Having dormant spores throughout your patch seem redundant and a waste of money to me, unless someone else has more information that I've missed.

Or is the question whether or not the active mycorrhizae will survive from year to year on annually tilled soil? Based on what I've read on the subject, I would be inclined to think that some of the root hairs will be distributed throughout your patch and that these will still have a mycorrhizal association, and by planting a cover crop in the Fall you can help in continuing their existence.

However, I would still think best practice would be a mycorrhizal application upon planting your patch every season.

8/15/2013 8:44:06 PM

Concord, CA.

Pumpking,
Well done, and I completely agree with your conclusion. If I were to spread Myco throughout my patch in the top 5-6 inches, and I have. Then when the season was over I decide to till the patch, I would have to till the soil until it became dust to have contacted, tramatized and killed all the Myco present. The other means to have killed them would have been to expose them on the surface of the soil during and after tilling. One could kill more Myco by watering with chlorinated city water during the season.
I plan to till in Oct./Nov. as a start to the next season. I also plan to add some more Myco to replenish that which had been spent on this years roots.
It seams to me that the product we use has been grown in a colony, then harvested, chopped up and packaged for sale. How is that much different than growing it in a colony in our patch then tilling the soil containing it?

8/15/2013 9:46:13 PM

Germany

Tad12, in my opinion the distribution of myco over the patch has some advantages:
- easy application (no need to take the powder with you to every leaf node when you bury the vines)
- a good chance to multiply myco spores with the aid of a supportive cover crop
- permanent "myco pressure" on the new roots

The latter is, in my opinion, very helpful. If you apply myco to the root bale and leaf nodes only, the young roots will get in contact with the myco spores for a short time only, and this (in my opinion) limits the success rate of myco "infection" of the root. Also, application of fungicidals via foliar application causes higher concentrations of those compounds around the leaf nodes, because some will be washed down the leaf stalk when watering or with morning dew. This will lower the success rate of myco infection in closer proximity of the leaf nodes again. Having myco spores everywhere, the spores will then hit the root tips wherever they go.

Last but not least, some of the positive effects observed with AG plants in virgin soil can (again IMHO) probably be attributed to the abundances of myco spores throughout the patch.

8/16/2013 1:05:43 AM

Farming- a bunch of catastrophies that result in a lifestyle

Pumpking: It DOES read that way, thank you for implying I'm a liar, really appreciate that. The forum here only allows 2000 characters per post- your welcome to go read the complete information on their website, which goes on to tell about using it throughout the patch, and a lot of other information that you failed to provide. Next time you decide to imply I'm lying, go back check my reference- I'm not here to hurt or hinder any damn body. Your dead wrong to imply such a thing.
Pap- your knowledge and willingness to help others is gold, in no way do I doubt that it HAS worked 'fine' for you. I have the utmost respect for whatever you say, and for you and your son sir.
Ashton- My apologies from one newbie to another for trying to provide helpful information, sure wasn't my intent to cause all this shit storm. I was happy to 'finally' be able to share information/something I learned to help someone else out as I have gotten so much help from others on here.
Have a great day, and good luck through the rest of the season to you all.

8/16/2013 7:19:45 AM

Germany

Dear LB, never meant to offend you. My simple and innocent intention was to provide a second opinion (which is my humble opinion) as to what I (AS A SCIENTIST) would read out of the paragraph you have posted in your above message. To me it does read the way I have tried to explain, which might be caused by the fact that I´m not one of you native speakers of the English language (...just assuming that you are a native speaker, but I don´t know, so please forgive me if I´m wrong). Apparently, Nor-Cal_BP does read this paragraph the same way (or in a similar way) as I do. Therefrom, I conclude that I just happened to be the first one who wanted to share this second opinion of what one could read in those lines. You have posted those lines, you have a reference and therefore I CANNOT claim that these are your words and therefore I CANNOT imply that you are a liar. At least in science, in scientific publications, it works this way.

Please, post the website address where I can find the full text. The I can go on and read the whole story. Thanks in advance.

8/16/2013 7:57:59 AM

N.c.

Dear LB,

Please do not be mad at Pumpking. Please believe me, from one North Carolinian to another, Pumpking meant no disrespect. He is not like us. He is a scientist with an analytic mind. He only wants to help you grow the biggest possible pumpkin. Pap and Tad12 will tell you this dispute over the best way to use myco has gone on for quite some time. I can tell you as a second year grower Pumpking has been a tremendous help to me. From reading my soil report and telling me how to prep my patch all the way through telling me the best fungicides to use and what to prune. I am growing four plants on 330 square feet of patch this year. I have five pumpkins growing now. Two are over four hundred pounds, one over three hundred and the plant with two pumpkins is carrying two pumpkins over two hundred pounds each. They are all still growing. I am very happy with my pumpkins' performance this year and it would never have been this good without Pumpking. LB, Pumpking wants to help you, let him. You will be glad you did!

8/16/2013 10:50:18 AM

Concord, CA.

LB,
There is no disrespect going on here. I have followed many of the posts throughout this website and have learned many things associated with pumpkins, gardening, genetics & plant biology. Everyone who posts here is trying to share their knowledge of our hobby. I applaud your bringing this subject to the table, it is valuable. I am a second year grower and am hungary to learn everything I can about this subject. Please continue to share your thoughts and information for the betterment of all.

Good growing, Nor-Cal_BP

8/16/2013 1:46:39 PM

Seattle, WA

It is unfortunate that this subject cases so much emotion. I know Pap has blocked me over it, and others won't even consider what I write worth reading.I hope we can continue the conversation without too much offense because I think it's a worthwhile topic.

Pumpking,
You bring up some good points. Now assuming that mycorrhizal fungi will grow along with the root, once you have infection/colonization, is it really worth it from a cost/benefit analysis. This is what I would be curious about. It's obviously not going to cause any harm. Applying a concentrated dose directly to the leaf node when you bury the vine would seem to make more sense to me. Would it not be better to do another myco application when you seed the cover crop in the Fall?

Just a few thoughts, I'm thinking out loud here based on my understanding of mycorrhizal fungi. I haven't seen anyone do any trials to this effect though.

8/16/2013 2:05:31 PM

Lodi, California

My focus on applying myco to the soil doesnt exclude application to the nodes. Most of the nutrients taken up by the plant comes from the base roots, so why not inoculate them? I believe the results from the Wallaces tilling in their myco is evident enough. If most growers just inoculate the nodes, what would happen if they inoculate the whole root system?

8/16/2013 2:30:47 PM

Lodi, California

http://www.mycorrhizae.com/faqs/

heres aa good link. as you can see in the first link on the page, what should i know when working with/applying myco? you can see that it says at the bottom the myco does die after tilling, but i am almost positive that it is refering to already established hypatha networks. take a look.

8/16/2013 2:37:38 PM

Germany

Looks like we are back to the right topic. Thank you very much, indeed. Tad12, I definitely agree with your point that the myco application to the leaf node is much more cost efficient, you need less myco for inoculation of each tap root (and the root bale, of course), and the myco will grow along the root, and therefore the whole root systems should become a myco forest by this method, and it will take way less of the myco products because you apply it to a very limited area.
Applying myco to the patch during fall prep, just as the rye seeds go in, makes alot of sense to me. However, I´m not quite confident that the inoculation success might be as good as in spring (tilling the myco in and then sowing another cover rye in spring) because of temperature issues (need to find out about the minimum temp for efficient myco activation at the roots) and perhaps residual components from a previous cover crop (mustard...kills many things when mowed and tilled in...does it inhibit efficient myco activity?...for how long?).

8/16/2013 2:45:57 PM

Lodi, California

if you inoculate a plant with mycorr (a cover crop) then till it in wouldnt it kill the mycorr since its already established?

8/16/2013 2:49:34 PM

Lodi, California

the mycorr becomes a part of the plant, so if you till the cover in wou would also be killing the mycorr,,, which is why tilling in dormant mycorr right before the roots makes sence to me.

8/16/2013 2:53:01 PM

Germany

Ashton, I understand it the same way you do, I also understand that the established networks will die after tilling, because there is no longer any symbiosis between the myco fungi and a supporting plant root. Myco spores, however, must survive, otherwise it probably wouldn´t be possible to store (and sell) myco spores without the support of the living plant roots in the same bottle.

The spores might also suffer after a while, as they can get "eaten" by other little guys such as Trichoderma. Therefore, one shouldn´t apply myco to the patch soil and then leave the soil fallow for one or two months. In case of application of myco to the whole patch, followed by a cover crop which establishes the symbiosis with myco, should therefore be a fine thing.

8/16/2013 2:53:20 PM

Lodi, California

typo *you

8/16/2013 2:53:31 PM

Lodi, California

but the mycorr in the package is dormant is what i am trying to say. it should stay dormant in the soil until it comes into contact with the kins roots.

8/16/2013 2:55:22 PM

Germany

Exactly! Try to have as much as possible living myco in your patch, it will multiply the myco spores, and try to kill the myco community only if you can make sure that the spores will then find a new cooperator very soon. That´s basically what had happened in the Wallace patches last year (as far as I understand it).

8/16/2013 2:56:14 PM

Germany

...and myco spores can be stored for a while and they will stay active, but they should not be exposed to soil (or other sources of Trichoderma fungi) if the spores cannot establish a symbiosis with a plant root very soon.

8/16/2013 2:57:50 PM

Lodi, California

i plan on tilling in the myco maybe 5 feet from the plant once it starts to grow. After that i'm going to break out the water soluble Mycorr

8/16/2013 3:01:49 PM

Farming- a bunch of catastrophies that result in a lifestyle

To let you all have a slightly better understanding-
1. I have not run off in a huff: I'm currently mowing grass on 7 acres with a push mower, that's in addition to pumpkins, pigs, the horses, the garden, and full time work- the riders carbs don't come in till next week, at which point a certain somebody around here had better have them on in a jiffy..... :}
2. I learn everything I can, about everything, it's my nature to apply information I have gathered and coordinate with other information from other sources, compare, make my decision, and move on. I am a learner by nature- big time. As an INTJ, it's what makes me tick. So. Your not getting rid of me. :}
NOW
Back to the regular scheduled programing- :}
Any of you read some of the field trials they have done with Myc across the globe?? I have, it is fascinating stuff. As the funding on my side of the fence is limited- I'm not tilling the mycro in. I intend to dip the babies, put a little in their hole at planting (one ounce according to the people who make the little beasties). After that the remaining ten ounces will get made into something called 'tea' once the babies start to run, that way I waste no beasties on dirt that doesn't have a plant for it to live on. I need all of the little beasties I can get in this godforsaken hole I live in.
This will save my money for other things, like systemics, to keep the bugs at bay in this bug infested swamp I live in. :}
The only thing reference wise I haven't been able to find is if mustard residue will do in the little beasties? Would be my luck to hand till all this dirt, get it microbially healthy again only to do them in trying to bulk up soils resistance to weeds/fungicide/bugs. Anybody know if the chemical component residue naturally found in decaying mustard will kill them?
Pumpking- Peace.

8/16/2013 4:23:15 PM

Farming- a bunch of catastrophies that result in a lifestyle

LOL
I intend to have enough mycro that you could sleep on em like a feather down mattress! I get my way.....I'll have to anchor the babies down to keep the mycro from shoving them out of the patch!!!
Ahhh, well, a girl can dream.

8/16/2013 4:26:30 PM

Germany

LB, I´m definitely not resentful ;-)
Instead, I´m more than happy about what I have read in your latest posts. I don´t know who you are, I don´t know what you look like, but I´m quite confident that you are now looking much more relaxed and much more friendly than about 11 hours ago, and that makes me happy.

8/16/2013 4:52:14 PM

Germany

...sorry, meant to write 9 hours ago, not 11.

8/16/2013 4:53:48 PM

Seattle, WA

LB, just FYI if a myco spore is more than 3mm from a root hair, it will stay dormant for the life of the plant. Making a tea and watering it in seems highly inefficient based on this knowledge. I would also avoid adding it to a compost tea, as the spores may become a very expensive food stock for the microbes in the tea. I know mycorrhizal applcations has some micronized products that are supposed to be able to be watered in, but my best experience has been with using it during initial planting, transplanting, and root injections for established trees.

Pumpking, thanks for the response, it gave me some ideas to mull over and you make some very good points. It would be nice to see some actual field trials that could look at this to find out at what point you're maximizing your colonization so people aren't wasting money. I'm glad this thread was able to continue in a friendly manner!

8/16/2013 5:27:49 PM

Farming- a bunch of catastrophies that result in a lifestyle

She said its a dust substance, at least the kind you mix w water. She said they have another kind that is granular that is applied w a broadcast spreader.
No worries guys. I ain't wearing a pointy hat to bed. Hahahahaha
She also called it a tea, but when i asked for clarification it was just the micronized beasties mixed w water, to be applied as the plant grows into new areas, foliar or soil drench she said...does that sound more on point?

8/16/2013 5:39:38 PM

Germany

"...foliar or soil drench..."??? No idea what the heck the myco spores are supposed to do on the leaves, but it might still be a possible way of myco application for those who don´t bury the vines. The spores which stay on the leaves will be lost for sure, but the run-off down the leaf stalk will eventually leave some drops where the new tap root forms in its very very initial state, and some drops have already hit the soil...in exactly that location where the new tap root will hit the soil soon.

...Just a thought.

8/16/2013 5:52:27 PM

Lodi, California

I believe some other soluble mycorrs list foliar applications because they also contain benificials besides mycorr that will croud out the bad bacteria, ect.

8/16/2013 9:27:54 PM

Farming- a bunch of catastrophies that result in a lifestyle

Pumpking- that ws my first thougt as well, ..." there are no roots on leaves". I think its likely a case of them runnin down the leaf stalk. Im going to spray it just ahead of the mains and secondaries as they grow. I picture mycorrhizae on the leaves with little homeless signs.......
Ashton- yes, that is the word i was missing: soluable. Upon her clarification of tea, "carrier" would be a better description as the water isnt disolving the mycorrhizae, but acting as a carrier for distributing the little guys evenly during the drenching process. As long they hit dirt containing pumpkin roots i dont much care if she reccomends a water cannon to get them there. :) Although, that would be pretty cool...

8/17/2013 1:45:53 AM

Farming- a bunch of catastrophies that result in a lifestyle

Does anybody know if the residual from the mustard will harm the mycorrhizae...I've to find information on that. I intend to wait the prescribed 3 weeks between tilling in mustard and planting......

8/17/2013 1:50:05 AM