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Colorado

lets say you live in an area where your have high soil pH (7.1-7.5) that can't be adjusted with sulfur. Therefore your Mn uptake is limited, since Mn uptake is limited at high pH. And despite high Mn levels in your soil, a tissue test shows a 10:1 a Fe:Mn ratio. Is there a way to raise the Mn levels in the plant to get that closer to 1:1? Can you foliar spray Mn to adjust? Is there some other nutrient or nutrient raio that can be adjusted to influence Mn uptake? Looking at tissues tests of several well respected local growers, our Fe:Mn ratios were all 10:1 or above.

Please don't advise to adjust pH with sulfur... unfortunately that doens't work for everybody's soil.

Don Young- do you have high pH soil, and do you see this problem? I remember a while back I thought your pH was above 7, but can't remember for sure.

3/20/2013 9:42:59 AM

Colorado

Also, anybody have any literature on discussing nutrient ratios? I've seen what are supposed to be the ideal ratios from "the ideal soil", langley estimator, and I suppose bill becker has 40 or so proprietary ratios that I haven't seen, but I was looking for a more in depth look at where we think these ideal ratios actually come from and why. thanks.

3/20/2013 9:45:31 AM

i purposely raise my ph to your level

ive found using a ultra fine humic acid and the humega ron wallace discovered brings levels (up in the plant)when used together with micronutreints short versoin long molecular chain of humic if small enough to enter stomato will wrap around other chains of mn ca mg etc and pull them into plant
tissue/soil tests ive took show it also in my patch

3/20/2013 11:45:27 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

My soil Ph is 6.8 dropped by 7 yearZ of S. Takes biology a while for this to occur. WaZ always told wont happen in CO our water is 7.6..... Sent in another test...could it be the same two yearZ in a row......Time will tell....

3/20/2013 12:38:34 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

I'm very interested in any discussion about calcareous soil. My pH is usually in the high sevens. I also have lots of free lime. If you put a scoop of my soil in vinegar, it looks like a kid's science experiment.

Over the years I've wondered what to do about it. Organic matter is always good, but I also have high salts, so manure is always questionable.

Despite the well known writeups telling us with calcareous soil to forget about sulfur, a few years ago I bought 1800 pounds of sulfur and proceeded to apply this to my 18,000 square foot garden space. (Yeah, it's big.) This application process took 2.5 years... I still have a tiny portion of the sulfur pile left. Anyway, I have not noticed any change in my soil... It's probably time to get another soil test.

3/20/2013 1:24:24 PM

Colorado

Pete,theres a soil minerals book by agricola that gives some specific levels and ratios to target.Theyre coming at it from a nutrition thinking point-so I dont know if a more giant pumpkin will result.It will be better for you if you eat it. Also sounds like youll need to spood feed mg sulfate in irrigation water.I just got my soil test back and I'm low in sulfur but I started with sand.

3/20/2013 1:41:38 PM

Little-TON, Colorado

Yup Pete, I got the ebook.... Coming Sat? Email me......

3/20/2013 2:14:19 PM

Colorado

Joe, I agree, its hard to tell from the book what effect "optimizing" the ratios will have on pumpkin size. Steve Geddes results were pretty epic though, so I'm inclined to tweak things as suggested. I just wonder how effective it will be come tissue test time, as mine, yours and jimmys results from 2010 all showed 10:1 Fe:Mn ratio. Not to mention, just how important is Fe:Mn ratio.... seems like just one ratio out of many that a person could consider optimizing.

3/20/2013 4:37:09 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

You can foliar apply Mn, Pete. Here's a good Mn article:
http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Mn_Basics.htm

What are your concentrations of each, Fe & Mn?

3/21/2013 12:11:49 AM

Colorado

Thanks Scott- right now Mn = 30 ppm, Fe = 6 ppm. pH = 7.2

3/21/2013 11:26:31 AM

Ontario, Canada.

I will through a couple of things out there.

First its all about solubility of the nutrients in the soil's water solution. They must be exchangeable in the soil solution.

I like Don's comment but I found using Fulvic acid may work even better as it is smaller. However this will not trans-locate from the immediate leaf area as micro's are not mobile within the plant. Micro's travel from the roots to the evaporative sinks of the plant. Hence the highest evapo area's get the most. So the key is to make them highly soluble in the soil.

This has worked for me in the past.

1. You can use Aluminum Sulfate to instantly lower pH but you must be very cautious to not add too much. Much like Boron it has a very narrow range of toxicity.

2. Micros can and often do become unavailable in soils due to tie up issues for a host of reasons. You can treat your irrigation water to as low as 5.5 pH to break the chemical bonds in the soil. This will allow for better solubility of the nutrients in the soil solution.

3/22/2013 8:19:26 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Wanted to add that also raising your soil CEC with Ha or Fa's using the very best nano, complexed or micronized micro nutrients will work as well. But each time you irrigate with hard Bi-carbonate water > tie up issues will occur.

3/22/2013 8:33:00 PM

Deer Park, WI

What are your base saturation percentages?

Supplemental nitrogen can help. N takes calcium with it when it leaches.

Mn can be foliar applied and with great success. Farmers with Mn-deficient soil who foliar apply to beans can jump off the tractor for lunch, come back out, and the field is noticeably greener due to its immediate effects!

Neal Kinsey's "Hands on Agronomy" provides the most straightforward nutrient ratio suggestions. Its an amazing resource.

3/22/2013 9:45:05 PM

Cheyenne,WY

I'm having the same problems getting my PH down. I was working with a local coop out of Nebraska and they encountered the same thing. No matter how much elemental sulfur was applied, the PH didn't lower. I'm currently running a ph of 7.8 and my well is at 8.1. I've rigged up an acid injection system for the water and that has helped my growth the last couple of years.

I'll really be interested in what you find out and I still would like to visit your patch this spring if you have time.

3/23/2013 9:58:12 PM

Cheyenne,WY

I should mention that I'm injecting my water with citric acid to lower the water to around 6.2. I then use foliar spraying throughout the day. I'm hoping this process has accounted for some of the growth I've seen.

3/23/2013 10:02:13 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Thanks for the advice about " Hands On Agronomy " Joze :)


Looks like a very good read!

3/24/2013 11:46:01 AM

Deer Park, WI

pH becomes less of a factor when you consider the relative levels of the entire cation distribution. If you have a high CEC, then yes, sulfur is going to have a more difficult time altering pH.

Calcium and Magnesium are very strong basic cations. Lots and lots of Ca/Mg mean its going to take lots and lots of work to reduce pH.

I'll reiterate that supplemental nitrogen can help leach excessive Ca/Mg. For calcareous soils, it may be one of the only ways to help alleviate the situation.

3/24/2013 5:18:55 PM

Colorado

hey joe, base saturatioin Ca 69, Mg 18, K 7, Na, 1, other bases 4.

3/24/2013 10:37:49 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Glad to hear that some folks are treating irrigation water.

There is a misconception that I have run into amoungst some folks that treated water will alter soil pH. Not so.

Also wanted to confirm what Joe is relating. High CEC & Ca numbers will pose a huge challenge in lowering pH.

I was for a time trying to treat my water and supplement with Ca and other micros at the same time. Quickly noticed that if I first added acid then Fa or Ha to the water it raised the holding capacity I was then able to add Ca without it raising the tank pH. Keeping the nutrients soluble is very important. Others may have more thoughts, just my 2 cents.

That is why I resorted to using AL sulphate...Gaspe...OMG...Be carefull though...I can hear everyone saying WTF, Russ really...

I found in my situation it was the only way to make a change that ever stuck. My weights went up and thats my story.

3/25/2013 12:10:59 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

I've been trying for years to lower my pH (7.8)in the soil which also has very high calcium levels. Never had any luck. My CEC is super high. I get it to come down a little (7.1) and I rotate every three years. Then when I test the site being with cover crops, it goes right back up.

3/25/2013 12:31:22 PM