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Seattle, WA

RTI, Science, and Growing Philosophies

I have been posting on BP now for a few years. I primarily stay in the Compost Tea forum, as that is my area of expertise and interest. I run very small family business that sells compost tea brewing machines. In the compost tea forum, I make no attempt to hide who I am or who I work for. I do share my knowledge freely though, and try to help people that are making their own brewers or have questions on subjects that I have personally tested using direct microscopy. I made a personal decision when I joined not to use this site for advertising or marketing purposes, but rather as a way to share information. I don’t grow giant pumpkins, but I have always liked the giant pumpkin community for a couple of reasons. As a group, it has been my experience that it is a very caring and open minded community. In addition, I’ve only seen one other group of growers (unfortunately their plants aren’t legal), who have the same passion and dedication towards maximizing plant growth and yields. This puts giant pumpkin growers right on the leading edge of growing techniques and concepts.

Recently, a thread was started in the Fertilizing and Watering section that asked, “What’s the best mycorrhizal product?” Many people responded that RTI was the best, and tests were mentioned that supported this conclusion. I was curious to learn more, as I had seen their products before but never had a chance to test them out myself.

2/8/2012 1:03:13 AM

Seattle, WA

As the thread continued, I posted more of my findings, which led me to the conclusion that RTI may not be the best mycorrhizal inoculant on the market. Rather than this sparking a discussion involving the merits of various products, instead this caused a backlash of defensive posturing and personal attacks on my credibility. Frankly, I found this to be quite disappointing.

A couple of years ago, Matthew DeBacco did a study on compost teas and milk, looking at efficacy in controlling powdery mildew. His study concluded that milk had greater suppression than compost tea (he was using my companies tea ingredients). I was quite happy with the study because we learned something new (though I’ve never been one to tout the disease suppressive abilities of ACT). If someone were to call me on the phone regarding using ACT to control PM, I can now share with them Matt’s findings. This is the information that makes us better growers!

I firmly believe that if we wish to become better growers, we have to be open minded to new information and base our decisions and growing philosophies on science and research, NOT politics, marketing and testimonials. I’m amazed at how many people love quoting tests and studies so long as they support their beliefs, but the moment something proves otherwise then they throw the scientific method out the window.

Is BP a place where we can post research, studies, links and information on growing, or is that not allowed if it goes against a company that buys large corporate sponsorships with the GPC?

2/8/2012 1:03:33 AM

Seattle, WA

What if growers had stopped trying new fertilizers when Miracle Grow first came on the market? Where would world records be then?

My point is this: There are vendors on this site and within the greater GPC community that make a living on selling products growers. In all honesty, I’d probably have to include myself on that list. However, I strongly believe that the growing community should be open minded to new research and information, even if it may contradict or challenge the status quo. This is the only way that growers can continue to push weights to new records.

I started this thread because I wanted to get this off my chest and also feel it didnt’ fit in the “Fertilizing and Watering” section. If you wish to view the original thread, you can do so at: http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=10&p=417609

Sincerely,
Tad Hussey
www.kisorganics.com

2/8/2012 1:03:45 AM

Redmond, Washington; U.S.A.

Tad. There's different ways to skin a cat.And A million ways to do it. In the end you have to get it done, one way or the other, we are all trying to grow big pumpkins here. - Respectfully, Ryan Ewing

2/8/2012 2:08:56 AM

Colorado

Tad I appreciate your efforts to bring the subject up.Over the last 5 or 6 seasons ive used RTI's mycho and Mycchorryzeal Applications product.I havent a clue as to whether one is better that the other.I dont even know if either is effective.Some independant trials on atlantic giants would be nice.Something that shows degree of mycho colonization using the different products and comparing to a noninnoculated control.Until thats done growers are in the dark

2/8/2012 3:41:40 AM

Johnston, R.I.

Very well said Tad..

2/8/2012 4:55:48 AM

Lexington, Ky

I think most of us have assumed that all growers are using some form of myco. It would be interesting to hear from growers of large pumpkins that don't use it. A couple of years ago, I recall that Quinn Werner didn't use it or used very little and he was cranking out some monsters at the time.

2/8/2012 8:44:35 AM

Netherlands

I grew a WR squash and a ER pumpkin in 2007 and a WR marrow in 2009 without it. I have used myco from two different suppliers but have not been able to observe any benefits or changes in root growth.

At the last weigh-off I talked to a representative of a major international fertilizer company which also adds myco to some of its products. Their testing has shown that myco has NO benefits to some soil types and does not need to be applied to regular healthy soil. It is added for poor soil added to new construction sites. According to him, it is more of a (biological) hype or trend than anything else.

In any case, my weights have gone down each year that I have used it, though my pumpkins get bigger meaning my pumpkins have gone lighter and lighter to the charts. I have no idea if myco plays a role in this at all. In any case, it hasn't boosted weights and I will no longer use it.

2/8/2012 9:23:49 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

I agree 1320.It would be neat to hear from some HH on the topic !!

2/8/2012 9:24:45 AM

Cameron

We're not HH, but we do use myco every year. We use RTI, as well as Mykes, & Joel's, usually all mixed together. Does it help, I think so. We've had a little success since we started using it. I remember 1st trying back it in 2003/04. We bought Mykes at Canadian Tire here in Canada. We had a new PB that year & have continued to use it ever since. Our mentor, Phil J (007) 1st introduced it to us.

Jane & Phil

2/8/2012 2:10:47 PM

Alaska

I agree with you Brad. However my experiences and experimentation have been with ACT. John Evans first came up with the ACT concept 20 plus years ago. Since then many a would be tea maker have jumped on the band wagon. Most are just looking to make that leap from the average grower to heavy hitter. For some it's money motivated. Just like where you're at Brad Alaska gets tons of sun in the summer. Plant growth at times is accelerated beyond belief. I spend hours in the garden every day tending and caring for what ever it is I'm growing. I document everything I do in writing and take lots of pictures. What I found to be true is if I do something that's bad I see it right away and if I do something good it shows up right away. My experimenting with ACT proved for me to be a waste of time. I got no better results by using Alaska Humus, Alaska Bountea and a few of my own recipes. As well as other products like , Actinovate, Actino-Iron, RootShield and a few other lesser known products. The whole idea here was to improve upon what I was already getting or at the very least do no harm. What I found was ACT did no harm but it didn't help either. All of my world records are a result of amending the soil with lots of the usual goodies adding the compost directly to the garden and forgetting the tea. IMHO ACT is snake oil. Ask yourself if these Bio stimulants are all they claim to be then why is it so many growers using the same products are getting such varied results? Why do the same people continually produce monster pumpkins while everybody else using the same silver bullet flounder around? Total plant care dedication and a little common sense will take you a long way. Next page/post

2/8/2012 2:15:10 PM

Alaska

With all that being said the wife and son in law will be growing pumpkins again this year. Last season they topped out at 200lbs. They made a few major improvements in the fall and they will be using RTI come spring. Here we go again, lol.
We chose RTI because it's field proven by the giant pumpkin community at large.
Please don't anybody take my post personally, it's just my opinion.

2/8/2012 2:15:24 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Good stuff Scott!

2/8/2012 7:07:21 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

I believe in myco; it gets my plants off to a better start (more roots and more vigorous root systems)... as to what brand is best, I've not experimented but kind of gone with the flow (and what my particularly favorite supplier is carrying)...

I really believe in using it to start most seeds, mixed in the starter mix.

Just my .00002 cents worth

2/8/2012 8:51:09 PM

Seattle, WA

Dutch Brad,
I totally hear what you're saying and I do think there is some truth to it. If you look at the some of the links on David Doud that I posted in the myco thread, you will see that he found a lot of native spores in the soil, even after covering the soil for a year to try and wipe them out. Ideally you would grow a cover crop and have active hyphae and growing spores when you plant your pumpkin. I do think that myco is worth it, at the very least it's an inexpensive inoculant to hit your seeds or seedlings with it when transplanting. The reason you may not be seeing dramatic results is because it may already be in your soil.

The fertilizer companies that add myco to their fertilizers typically only add enough to get it on the label, not enough to get good colonization, which is sort of a sneaky trick on the part of many fertilizer companies. You would want to compare the amounts in the fertilizer with some of the numbers I posted in that thread to get a comparison in regards to propagules/spores.

2/8/2012 11:42:35 PM

Seattle, WA

Spudley,

You obviously had a bad experience with ACT and were quite rude to me over on the other thread. I appreciate that at least in this thread you've actually shared some of your experiences so I have a chance to address them.

Here's what I want to get across:
1. Our company has been around since 2002. We did not jump on any 'bandwagon' to make money. My father started the company after meeting Dr. Ingham and much of the initial testing regarding compost teas was done with our brewer. We've spent over 100K in R & D in developing our product and testing it.

2. You say compost tea doesn't work and is no better than snake oil. This statement is your opinion, though there are studies that show increased growth and health using compost teas over controls.

3. I have never claimed that ACT is a silver bullet. In fact, I tell people that it is not. Rather, it is a tool, just like a rake or shovel or fertilizer. Used correctly and in the right circumstances it can have benefit.

4. The ACT industry is unregulated and many companies sell untested products or make false claims. There are companies that claim it can be refrigerated and others that claim you can brew perpetually. Our testing has proved this to wrong.

2/8/2012 11:55:33 PM

Seattle, WA

5. I've always said this: "If you have good healthy soil with good biology, then ACT may have little to no benefit." The idea of ACT is to replace organisms that are killed off through compaction, environmental pressures, etc... I know some people who have told me they see dramatic results with 1-2 applications. When I apply it to my plants, I usually notice the leaves perk up a bit the next day. However, I don't think it's for every situation and I am the first to tell people that.

6. Many people think they are making ACT, but really they may just have some brown water with little to no biology. Good ACT has bacteria/archea, fungal hyphae, flagellates, ciliates, and amoeba. The only way to properly evaluate ACT is with a microscope. So you can't say it doesn't work if you don't even know if you made it right in the first place. I'm happy to share guidelines for making your own brewer with proper inputs to make sure you have a quality product prior to application.

Okay, didn't start this thread to debate the merits of ACT, but I feel like Scott has had a personal chip on his shoulder and has used the fact that I work for a company that produces ACT machines to somehow discredit my posts on other threads.

2/8/2012 11:55:42 PM

Seattle, WA

Lastly, I want to say that Tom and I talked today on the phone and worked out our differences. I think it's easy to misinterpret people over email and posts and it was glad to get a chance to chat about our opinions.

Cheers,
Tad

2/8/2012 11:56:40 PM

Indiana

The only way to prove anything is to do a large scale field test. Genetic variance is to high for anyone growing 5 or 10 plants to come to any conclusions.

I cannot speak towards Holland's product, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt RTI is beneficial in a field scenario.

Azos and Mykos appear to be very symbiotic in 2 field tests on 350 and 150 plant plots respectively. I'd have to dig up the numbers on my other computer, but we had higher yield per acre, better % heavy, more fruit per plant, higher average top weight per plant, and less rot loss. I could go on and on, but based on my field tests, I dont think that there is any remaining debate as to if the products work, the question is how much.

Tom

2/9/2012 12:00:59 AM

Alaska

Like I said Tad don't let my opinion ruin your day. ACT ain't for me. I'm results driven and it didn't produce the results I was looking for. Move on please.

2/9/2012 12:50:48 AM

Netherlands

Tom, using myco or anything in a field scenario is quite different than what we giant vegetable growers do. I can imagine it helps in the field. However, we grow in raised beds, barrels, tubes, etc. We build up the soil each year from scratch using different components. When properly done, myco, ACT, or whatever, tends to be overkill. That is what I was refering to when I mentioned it has no benefit for certain soils.

Like Scott and several other giant veg growers, we grow many plants, often way over 100. And we document everything we see and as EGVGA coordinator, I get to see what our 200 members in about 20 countries do as well. This gives us a good insight into what is working and what isn't. The main thing is that the guys breaking the records are not using myco or compost tea. Some of us have used it in the past, but it hasn't gotten us better results, so I'm with Scott (who has a lot more WRs than me) on this one.

2/9/2012 3:43:23 AM

Glosta

Den, not to start an arguement but myco does not get plants off to a better start. It is actually a detriment to plants for the first month. The myco colony is not strong enuff to return more than it takes to the plant so it is actually taking away from the plant more than it returns. After the first month the balance shifts and the plant benefits. If you don't believe me call a mycologist. I did.

2/9/2012 3:56:49 AM

Glosta

Ooops, Deb, not Den.

2/9/2012 4:03:20 AM

Ohio

Bry, first time I have ever heard of that, so are you saying its best to completly hold out on using any Mycro on starting a seedling untill its about 4 weeks old then?

2/9/2012 6:57:43 AM

Glosta

No. Earliest inoculation is best. Look at timeline. Mid April myco applied at seeding. Mid may myco is in full swing and growing at an incomprehensible rate.

2/9/2012 7:08:31 AM

Ohio

oh ok, thanks

2/9/2012 7:23:58 AM

Glosta

here is the title of a study that goes through myco's life cycle. Particularly Glomus intraradices, the main ingredient in most myco products.
STUDY ON LIFE CYCLE OF ARBUSCULAR MYCORRHIZAL
FUNGUS GLOMUS INTRARADICES USING IN VITRO
CULTURING TECHNIQUE
Journal of Phytology 2010, 2(6): 69–75 ISSN: 2075-6240
Microbiology

In here it states: "The first true spore formed 25 days after contact and then number of spores increased exponentially."
So I wanted to know more and was told that this timeline was when the myco was not really benefiting the plant and once the colony flourished it became a benefit to the plant. And also more and more Myco companies are producinging seed treat products to iniitae the sequence sooner.

2/9/2012 7:43:58 AM

Glosta

please excuse my spelling mistakes.

producing*
initiate*

2/9/2012 7:46:13 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Bry, I actually spoke with a major name in the research area, he stated:
"There are many who state that infection takes weeks, yet I have literature from studies indicating infection in 5 days up to 26 days."

2/9/2012 9:29:11 AM

Bethlehem CT

The soil and how it reacts to what we do to it is very complex,(to say the least) what works one place for one person may not work for someone else. Factors that may affect whether a product works or not could almost be endless. It wasn't too awful long ago that Justis Von Liebig thought that plants just needed three elements for healthy growth. (Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium.) Just a few short decades ago when I was in school Mycorrhizae were not talked about for growing field crops. They were aware that certain forest species were dependent upon them for growth. But that is about it. for example they knew that rhododendron's needed ericoid mycorrhizae to grow properly and thrive.
Why does one thing work for one person and not for another? Who knows? I am sure there are critical factors and relationships that science hasn't even discovered yet. I believe the more we learn about biology, the more unknowns we will have. Until then we must do what works or seems to work. One hundred years ago they knew that they should take a little of the native soil from around a Rhododendron and use it in the soil media when starting seeds of that Rhododendron. They didn't know what was going on, but they knew that it worked.

2/9/2012 9:31:58 AM

Glosta

I hope none are confused by my statement. It is not the infection time frame but the growth time frame of the mycorrhizal community. Some studies show in a low Phosphorus soil the results are nearly immediate becasue of the ability of Mycorrhizal fungi to solubilize P and enhance its uptake. However, not many of us have low fertility issues. On the contrary alot of us have just the opposite. So reguarding this the mycorrhizal community needs to reach a pivotal population to effectively benefit the plant.

I hope this helps

2/9/2012 12:03:47 PM

Seattle, WA

A buddy of mine actually mentioned a study that showed faster colonization as well, similar to what Tom eluded to. Though I had initially read that infection takes weeks and may not be worthwhile for fast growing/harvested annuals.

I'm super busy this week with the NW Flower and Garden Show going on, but I can try and dig it up later.

I agree that the earliest possible inoculation is best.

How are people applying the myco? I hope no one is mixing it through their entire patch or bed, as that would be really expensive! You really only need to roll the seeds or roots hairs, or sprinkle it into the hole when transplanting.

2/9/2012 12:05:19 PM

Redmond, Washington; U.S.A.

Last year I put it in the hole when I transplanted and also mixed it with the organic fertilizer that I bury in the trenches with my vines.

2/9/2012 12:31:05 PM

Finland/Estonia, Island of Saaremaa

Tad, what about the tap roots then? Is application when burying vines in your opinion useless since you are referring to transplanting phase only?

2/9/2012 12:33:59 PM

Juha,
No it is absolutely not useless. Our experience in the patch and of countless other very successful growers are that adding mycorrhiza while burying (at the tap roots) helped create massive roots.

2/9/2012 4:24:59 PM

Joliet, IL

There have always been those who have said since the beginning of the using myc fungi that all you need is to use it once at transplanting. This makes sense for regular gardening, but not for extreme gardening. By innoculating every tap you are insuring the odds of a strong colony forming immediately on each new tap that will then grow out from there as the tap spreads out. At a certain point there is only so much a root system can take into the plant. But on research I have seen, a plant with maximum intake in the right environment will grow at a faster rate and progressively need more nutrients. Snow ball effect. Innoculate early and at each tap for insurance of maximum innoculation. With the amount of nutrients these plants use up with just the vegetative components let alone the fruit is silly. They more myc fungi, the faster these nutrients are made available to a plant that is already going apeshit. And fornthose that doubt using myc fungi at all, go talk with a representative from a hydroponic store and ask their opinion. They have continual feedback from growers trying to achieve the same results as us...growing the healthiest plants and pushing them to increase the size of their fruit. Proof is in the overall yield and using myc fungi is common practice now with those growers for increasing bud size and plant yield.

2/9/2012 9:43:45 PM

Muddy Waters

I used Mycorr this year for the first time ever.I have never seen watermelons grow roots on the leaf base(on vine)till this year vines that werent touching the ground had white roots growing out,While others talked about burying vines to get roots going.I never buried a one,I grew 4 PBs in melons.shattering my old PB by 70 lbs.I grew my first 1000 pd kin & barely gave the plant the time of day,about 1 hr a week care.I grew my first mater almost 4 lbs.before mycorr my PB was 2.5 lbs maybe at best.If it wasnt the mycorr,I have no idea what else it could be also PB on Squash 640 pds. Plant success mycorr works great!

2/9/2012 10:04:36 PM

Ontario, Canada.

By the key here in what you are citing is in-Vitro. These conditions are vastly different than what I believe Tom is referring to. Actual garden patch conditions are less than ideal as compared to the conditions quoted in the cited article. IMO 12 weeks is the benchmark to determine the level of outdoor AGP patch colonization.

I have had several lengthy discussions with Neil and Dr. Linderman which confirm what Tom is stating. My testing and root sampling begins in the 12th week after inoculation.

One of the theory's I broached with Linderman was the idea to pre-inoculate soils with OTHER plant roots that the AGP roots will eventually grow into. This is where the idea of growing deep rooted annuals like Sorghum's and pampas grasses started. The thought at the time was that spores would already be presented to actively growing roots. It was further tailored by starting pre-inoculated sacrificial plants ahead of the vine growing competition plant.

I tried this a couple of times but my luck and skills are never very good. LOL. I will be doing this on my tomatoes next season. I will start sacrificial inoculated plants weeks before the actual 5.41 Landry goes into the same location.

2/9/2012 10:09:33 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Ya know in the same train of thought I often do not worry about weeds in my patches too much. I feel they contribute to the overall health of the soils fungal community.

Call me crazy but as long as they do not hinder the canopy weeds are allowed to grow in my patches. IMO they help to foster the Hyphal network and increase the level of overall colonization and arbuscual development.

2/9/2012 10:22:06 PM

Glosta

Russ you have done root testing? Please share.

2/10/2012 4:01:08 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Shazzy, I couldnt agree more.

2/10/2012 5:05:28 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Yes I have had roots tested. A brief of my findings are listed on the other page. The results are not to be taken literally. They are what they are. I hope this helps but it may only muddy the waters further.

2/10/2012 6:37:31 AM

Seattle, WA

Shazzy,

You have an interesting point. I wonder though if infection from other roots from the active hyphae is going to occur as fast or faster than the dormant spores you're adding to the new tap roots?

Your way would guarantee infection of the entire plant, however it would be a lot more expensive.

I'm also running across more and more literature that seems to support the idea that myco can survive in the soil in spore form in between season (especially if you have a myco-symbiant cover crop) and you may not need to be inoculating every year. That being said, I would still probably hit your plant when it's little and you're first transplanting.

Someone would have to compare root infection using both methods to get a real answer.

2/13/2012 11:58:41 AM