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Charlotte, MI

I have been growing ag's for a few year's. I would like some thoughts and or opinions on the no till approach. I did follow Don's guide lines in the all organic way last
year, with fair success. A question I have is, if your soil requires amendments do they or can they leach into the root zone?

Thank you Luigi.

1/1/2012 6:43:21 PM

Colorado

I dont think they leach evenly or Ideally. Youve got to mix em in somehow-till, shovel plow.Tilling is a good way to control weeds and kill earthworms.Ive used no till where I grow giant sunflowers and the dirt hasnt improved like the pumpkin patch has with tilling

1/1/2012 7:40:30 PM

Lloydminster/AB

I think the best approach is one of minimal till. Some people till to keep weeds down and in my opinion that isn't a good reason to destroy your soil structure. I'm all for tilling in amendments to your soil in the fall and a good spring till does my soil wonders. I'd bet that there are soils out there that don't require the spring till to break up the soil. As always, experiment!

1/1/2012 11:25:15 PM

Charlotte, MI

Thank you for the shared info. Are there growers that grow big and use the no till method?

1/2/2012 11:08:32 AM

Rhode Island

how big is big? 900 and under yes a few growers.999 and up? none that i know of.after a few years of no till you may as well grow on your driveway.
plants need air as well as mixing in nutrients to grow healthy plus, a compacted soil leaves a lot of doors open for even more disease problems.like trying to breath with a bag over your head. not good.

1/2/2012 6:34:29 PM

Commack, NY

im guessing that by "no till" you mean mixing the soil via non-mechanical means. in the past i have "double dug" my entire patch by hand to accomplish aerating the soil as well as encorporating my amendments. its certainly not for the faint of heart. i dont have as much real estate to work with as many people on this board do, so what may be somewhat do-able for me might not be do-able for most.

1/2/2012 7:55:18 PM

Muddy Waters

Its kinda like walking to Florida,You can do it,great for the environment,great for you.I prefer driving much faster & enjoyable leaves more time for other veggies.

1/2/2012 7:57:10 PM

Gays Mills, Wisconsin

No-till for 2 years resulted in a 1448 in 2010. Soil disruption was only hand hoeing the top 1-2 inches.
It was grown in a sandy loam that was last ammended in the spring of 2008 then set aside until 2010. The patch was seeded with grass/yard seed and never stepped in for 2 years (riding lawnmower yes). Soil was wormy, spongy, great structure and very fertile, plants grew well!
But I don't think leaching will work as well as tilling in the amendments to keep the soil headed the right way.
Was the 1448 a no-till success? yes and no, depending on how you classify 'no-till'. But after driving on patch to remove pumpkins I needed to till for compaction the next year. One would need 3 or more separate patches to sustain this type of 'no-till'. John

1/2/2012 8:03:59 PM

Charlotte, MI

Thank you. This is the feed back I was looking for, as mentioned in my first post, I followed the all Organic way the last few years turning over my soil with a pitch fork in the fall about 1500 sq ft, to incorporate amendments and mulching with compost,using compost tea,and following the other great info shared by Don, hand pulling my cover crop of winter wheat as my plants grew ect. My fall soil test came back looking real good, needing only Nitrogen as expected. I can tune that up in the spring.

1/2/2012 8:58:44 PM

Charlotte, MI

Pap, I read Back Yard Giants last week and I am pumped for next growing season. I secured some good seeds for 2012. 1647,1568,1408.5,1377,Wallace. Also the 1818.5 Bryson. Not sure what to plant yet,I respect your veiw point on the no till topic. I am just alittle ADD and want to do the best by these seeds. And my back is just starting to recover from last season. My tiller just needs fuel. Thank you Luigi

1/2/2012 9:17:13 PM

Rhode Island

grow a biggin luigi
pap

1/3/2012 6:38:01 AM

Ontario

John ,one peice of equipment that works great in the garden to break up soil, without doing much damage to soil structure,and allow air into your soil,is a" broadfork"you can take a look a them a Johnnyseed.com they have different models,made in U.S.A and will last a life time. Terry

1/3/2012 9:26:34 AM

Breslau, Ontario, Canada

Ya Terry
I love my broadfork!

1/3/2012 10:24:59 AM

Glosta

I built a broadfork this year, what a huge difference it made in my patch. was able to get down 14.5" into the soil, I plan to make another that will go 18" deep. If you can drill holes and swing a hammer you can build one for a fraction of the cost of buying one. I broke an ash handle and bought wheel barrow handles as replacements and i'm still only in it for around 70$, plus if something breaks its easily repaired. there are pics of it in my 2011 diary

1/3/2012 10:44:48 AM

Upa Creek, MO

For you broadfork users, what is the difference with using one of those and a big pitchfork? Do you actually turn the soil with a broadfork or just break up the hard pan?

Thanks

1/3/2012 12:32:37 PM

Breslau, Ontario, Canada

Hey luke,
The big difference I guess is how heavy duty the tines are.
It depends when I'm forking. If it's in the spring, I get into a rythem, and I would say I'm actually turning the soil.
Once my plants are in the ground and I'm working close to the plants, I stick the forks in and gently rock the fork back and forth. I always do this after I put up my hoop house or plant seedlings or move walking boards etc. It breaks up the compaction where I just walked.

1/3/2012 12:55:52 PM

Upa Creek, MO

Thanks for the reply John

1/3/2012 1:13:50 PM

Glosta

Luke, I had very defined layers in my soil from sand being added over 30 years ago to fill the property, the tiller just did not get deep enough to mix it in well enough. This fall i used the broadfork to literally flip my soil and then ran the tiller through it to really mix it up. I did this twice did one pass then another pass 90 degrees from the first. This spring I'll use the broadfork to lossen the soil not flip it. and now that the soil is broken up more anyway i really wont be able to flip it very well. Before it came up in large chunks now it breaks apart.
As john said you get into a rythem and it just goes fast, once the soil is lose it goes even faster. My second pass was done 4 times faster than my first. My Homemade broadfork has a tine width of 22" I plan on building one with minimum 36" width to make things even faster.

1/3/2012 1:43:20 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Yup,
Just bought me a broad fork, Dont tell BIZ...itZ a secret, <Mine will get down to 16", made of all steel...Cant wait to use it....

1/3/2012 1:54:06 PM

Anamosa, IA [email protected]

For production agriculture I am a big fan of notill. It takes quite a few years, but it makes a real big difference in soil quality, structure, infiltration, organic matter, etc. For our intensively managed pumpkin patches, with lots of added organic materials, notill loses some of its benefits. I still prefer to keep tillage the the minimum, to keep from chopping up all of my worms and breaking down my soil structure. I use a fork whenever I can and try to limit my tiller to a final cultivation before the vines really start to run. Sometimes due to health problems (bad shoulders, arthritis) I have to run the self propelled tiller more than I like. I find that if I till the soil too much, the next rain will cause it to crust over, making root penetration difficult. Adding lots of leaves, grass, compost and manure, and turning it in with the fork in the fall results in nice, mellow soil in the spring.

1/3/2012 2:07:06 PM

Upa Creek, MO

Bry, nice job with that home made b-fork. Nice thread too, good to hear all the different views.

1/3/2012 2:34:06 PM

Charlotte, MI

Wow! Thank you so much to all. I am a journeyman tool maker by trade with a fab shop in my pole barn. I can do this. Agreed, fantastic dialogue. Luigi.

1/3/2012 6:20:43 PM