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Northern California Foothills

This was my second year going to the Elk Grove weigh off and both times they have not followed gpc rules and been disrespectful. This year, a total of four fruit were entered in the giant squash category. One was ruled as a pumpkin due to failing the color qualification. However, they did not disqualify two obviously pink pink banana squash and they won prize money. The rule book clearly states that squash must be blue, green,gray, or any combination of the three. Also they didn't feel the need to officially measure my pumpkin, enter in its parents, and it also was one of the last few entered onto the results page. My pumpkin was one of the first few brought to the weigh off and there were many pumpkins smaller than mine with ott measurements and a few with parental information posted in the results page. I see no reason why it wasn't measured.It would have been nice to know how close my ott measurement was to the official one. The integrity of this sport was also lost when the officials allowed entries clearly not grown by the "grower" into the future farmer's category. To the people who saw it, Troy Shelton clearly could not have "grown" his pumpkin. They were a few other questionable entries and this is not fair to the kids who actually grew their pumpkins.

10/3/2011 11:19:25 PM

Eugene,OR

I think what it really comes down to is officiating. CSD does a great job on putting on the Elk Grove event and I have no qualms with them. I do agree that the "sport" in general lacks having a visible and trained referee at each and every weigh-off site who is responsible for uniformly interpreting the rules, handling protests, and taking care of any procedures which need to be handled. Even if there is such a person at a contest, most people have no idea of who they are or how to find them. I really do not think it is an issue with the people at CSD (who put on the Elk Grove Weigh-Off), but rather it is an issue that needs to be addressed across the board at contests so that the rules are applied fairly and uniformy where ever you go.

10/4/2011 1:00:27 AM

Colorado

Judges rules are final.You have to address your grievance(concern) during the contest.Claiming foul two days after the contest misses the mark and smells of sour grapes.How can you tell that someone "clearly didnt grow a fruit"?

10/4/2011 1:04:31 AM

[email protected]

I think voicing his opinion is not of SOUR GRAPES. If things need to be addressed then they should be.

10/4/2011 9:07:38 AM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

I do agree with Eddy. If there's issues they need to be addressed. All the entries should be treated the same all the way across, at any and every GPC sanctioned weighoff.

10/4/2011 11:13:28 AM

Parker, Co

cucurbits...yep, we have some things to work out at the EG weighoff. please call them and voice your issues. i will do the same. hopefully it will get better. we do have very few growers that are helping over there and we will address this issue at our next meeting. i will make sure they know we have a problem. thanks, cindi

10/4/2011 11:18:26 AM

Parker, Co

cucurbits...it is much harder to fix things AFTER the weighoff. i do know that they had a book over there with all the rules. IF you had brought it up to zach i am sure it would have been corrected there. i was part of the measure crew and that is how the one that was listed as a squash but was a pumpkin was corrected. make your issues at the weighoff and they will be corrected and it will have a positive impact.

10/4/2011 11:23:14 AM

Ireland

I agree with Eddie

10/4/2011 11:36:16 AM

Parker, Co

thanks to those growers who DID help! russ pingrey, jose ceja, leonardo, pam and loren vanderschoot, dave...dave from elk grove, ken mitchell, brian meyer, pete glasier

10/4/2011 11:36:31 AM

Knopp, Germany

It all come down to this:

All judges’ decisions are final. All judges will be
responsible to have a complete knowledge of all rules and
how to implement them fairly. It will be necessary to have a current copy of the rules present at each site in public view so anyone may reference them.

So, if the site didn't meeet these requirements, then the gpc rules mean nothing, then everyting is a farce.

You don't work toward the GPC standards, you have them, or you don't.

Can't wait to hear responces.

The GPC needs more control, or they are just a acronym that sites trhough out to the press.

owen

10/4/2011 1:58:37 PM

Parker, Co

CUCURBITS AND OWEN, i think most of these problems are accidental. at least...at EG. we just need more grower participation at the weighoff NOT just after complaining. Please cucurbits introduce yourself at the grower meeting or at the weighoff next year so i can put you to work. we need someone to help with the squash and the FF area. also...please give us some ideas of how to clean up the FF division. maybe an age limit? i think the problem is when the "grower" is so young they may have to be carried to the scale...what can we do to fix this? the parents or the grands are the ones entering these pumpkins in the FF division. ...any ideas? EG is open for ideas. also, i am not quite done entering info. pretty close. i did find your measurements and entered them a few minutes ago.

10/4/2011 2:04:35 PM

Knopp, Germany

i stand by my statement.

your weighoff is not alone.

10/4/2011 2:21:58 PM

Colorado

Pink banana squash and junior division entries are not GPC sanctioned catagories are they?

10/4/2011 2:24:19 PM

Knopp, Germany

and BTW, don't ask me, ask all of the jury members at the weigh offs.

i have studied the rules, and when i have questions, i asdk the gpc committee before the weighoff.

actually my comments are not towards your weighoff, i was over 6000 mile away, my comments are towards the juryembers that have no idea, but still p;ost offical gpc results.

they should be ashamed.

10/4/2011 2:26:04 PM

Parker, Co

joe, i think you are right. pink banana squash and kids divisions are not a gPC thing. the banana squash is not even a eG thing. just slipped by with all the excitement. we just need Cucurbit to help us next year.

10/4/2011 3:05:05 PM

Elk Grove , California

I agree completely on the issue of the age of some FFA entrants. I was the MC for the pumpkin weigh-off. There were several FFA entrants too young to talk or walk to the stage. The pumpkin needs to be entered by its primary caretaker or at least someone old enough to know the basics and participate in some manner in growing it. Where is that line to be drawn? I note that the National FFA organization has a minimum age limit of 12 years old to join. Maybe we should all use that age as a minimum to enter the FFA category?

10/4/2011 4:29:51 PM

Elk Grove, CA

Good Day All -

My name is Zach and I coordinate the weigh-off in Elk Grove, California and have since 1994 (17 years). First I would like to apologize to Cucurbits for any instance where you may have felt we were disrespectful either to the rules or to you personally. I would also like to take a minute to see if I can respond to your concerns here in the forum you’ve chosen.

With no intention of making excuses I would like to set the stage a little bit for those who have not attended our weigh-off. First we are proud to be an official weigh-off site for the GPC and will continue to work with our local committee of growers to follow all of the GPC rules and regulations. The GPC contest includes Pumpkin, Squash, Watermelon, Tomato, Long Gourd, and Field Pumpkins. A number of years ago, to meet the interests of our growers here in Elk Grove, California we expanded our contest to include Pumpkin, Squash, Watermelon, Tomato, Cantaloupe, Zucchini, Corn Stalks, Sunflowers, and Long Gourds. We also include a Future Farmer Category to allow our youth to compete separately so they will not be discouraged by competing with the adult growers (some of them still choose to compete with the adults and have done very well). We do follow the same definition of Grower as provided by the GPC: “Grower is defined as the person who has grown and cared for the entry from planting to harvest” but since I can not personally be in every patch to witness, there is as with any contest, a certain “honor system” you have to have with all of your entrants. Do I believe that a 14 month old child would be considered a “grower” and grew a pumpkin from planting to harvest I certainly do not but since it did not factor into the Future Farmer prize money it did not have an impact in the category. I did have this discussion with the family and we continue to encourage all entries to refer to the provided “grower” definition.

10/4/2011 4:51:00 PM

Elk Grove, CA

Based on the input of our participants we have also implemented a couple of other items such as Largest Entries from Sacramento County to encourage our local growers, 2 mystery spot prizes of which are selected at random for growers who finish outside of the top prize money, and an overall mystery weight prize (based on an equation such as 20th place minus 325 pounds).

My point with all of this is here in Elk Grove “WE LISTEN”. We listen to our growers who suggest additional categories or when they bring concerns to our attention when items that have been placed in the wrong category. Given the proper opportunity we have, and will continue, to address any of these concerns as they arise during the festival, following festival in our wrap up discussions with our judges and growers, or if we have to in this type of public forum. I agree with all of you a contest is only as good as the standards it is held to and without standards it is really not a quality competition. I will commit to each of you, today, and everyday, that in Elk Grove we will continue to promote and produce only the highest caliber event to represent the GPC as well as all of the giant pumpkin growers around the world.

We do rely a lot on our volunteers to assist in the judging, categorizing, and measuring our entries to report to the GPC. On Saturday we had 144 different items entered in our contest, if there was an item that was not categorized correctly I would like to thank cucurbits for bringing that to my attention so we can ensure this does not happen again in the future. I would also happily welcome cucurbits to volunteer to assist us in the judging, measuring, and categorizing our entries next year. I am not a hard guy to find (especially on weigh-off day). I am the guy who greets every grower as they arrive in the park, consider myself to be very approachable and open for discussion. Feel free to contact me directly with any questions [email protected]

10/4/2011 4:53:17 PM

Elk Grove, CA

Sorry to have taken up so much time.

Sincerely
Zach Jones
GPC Weigh-Off Coordinator
Elk Grove Giant Pumpkin Festival

10/4/2011 4:54:09 PM

[email protected]

Zach
Very well answered and don't be sorry. In 24 hrs through this forum, there were questions, concerns, and answers to all of them.
Sometimes rather than causing a scene at the venue where time is critical and rash decisions are made, using a forum like this is best.
And thank you to the Elk Grove Pumpkin Festival, you have probably helped other clubs and the GPC in going forward by having this public, because we are all family!!!!!

10/4/2011 5:28:06 PM

Elk Grove, CA

Happy to assist however we can. Pumpkin growers truly are the nicest people on earth!
Z

10/4/2011 6:09:56 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

Zach, please email me at [email protected]

I'd like to compare a few notes with you offline if I may so impose... thanks. !!!and yes, well answered!!!

10/4/2011 7:05:46 PM

Parker, Co

i like that FF age concept. 12 is about right. younger than that they can enter as a family/team . certainly something to think about.

10/4/2011 7:51:46 PM

Parker, Co

great response zach!

10/4/2011 7:53:35 PM

Northern California Foothills

Thanks for the responses everybody. Thank you tumble weeds for entering my information. I was unaware that information was still being put in. I'm sorry for falsely accusing you.I wasn't sure who to go to at the weigh-off, so that is why I posted my concerns here. Who should I go to at the weigh-off? As for the ff category, I think 12 is too high for a minimum age because there are kids under 12 that grow their own pumpkins. I think there will always be problems in this category, but when it is obvious they actually didn't grow the pumpkin, something should be done.I had a great time at the weigh-off and did not feel disrespected at the weigh-off.

10/4/2011 8:05:27 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Maybe there should be an upper age limit as well? LOL.

10/4/2011 8:29:44 PM

Parker, Co

Zach is a good person to go to at Elk Grove if you have any questions. He has been involved in the festival and he knows the answer or how to find the answer to about any questions you may have. Any of the people wearing one of the volunteer T shirts can point him out to you if needed. I am still inputting info and there will be corrections i am sure. i will look forward to seeing you next year at the weighoff and i hope you can volunteer to help us have a better weighoff.

10/4/2011 8:31:47 PM

Eugene,OR

As you can clearly see, Zach and the people at CSD really put their heart and soul into this event and it is first rate. However, I do wish that there was a "judge" or "referee" who was not part of the event management team who was trained by a governing body like the GPC. In Major League Baseball or any other professional sport it is not the owner of the franchise who officiates...it is handled by a completely impartial second party, the umpires/referees, etc. Wouldn't it be strange if George Steinbrenner (when he was alive) was making the calls behind the plate?

10/4/2011 10:24:08 PM

Parker, Co

russ...maybe someday. but in the meantime YOU can help us out next year maybe?? we will get organized early. EG has the book with all the rules we just need growers to help.

10/4/2011 11:05:13 PM

Eugene,OR

It really shouldn't be a grower who has an entry, or who has friends in the competition. I had the privledge of disqualifying Jim Martin for a split that he didn't think went into the center cavity at HMB three years ago--that was a lot of fun. I also had the character-building experience of measuring a 435 inch pumpkin at HMB that year and being told by its owner (who was HIGHLY stressed at the time) that I was doing it wrong. I didn't have a pumpkin there that year and volunteered to judge. I expect to be put in uncomfortable positions and even be yelled at when I referee basketball, but I'm trained to do that...I was just "helping" at HMB! I know that because there is not an officiating program in place, it is something that we as growers have to do...but it is hard to tell a friend that he is disqualified.

10/4/2011 11:34:36 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

We have junior division for pumpkins and tomatoes at our weighoffs... that's under 15 as of the day of the weighoff, down to, 'head start' age (we have a Head Start program for 3 & 4 year olds). IF the junior grower wants to put their entry in the Senior division they may do so.

Junior division is to let the kids have a chance.

3-4 is old enough to know a weed from the main plant, and be helping with gardening alongside parents. We've handed out tomato plants at the schools in the spring, and give plants to the kindergarten and the Head Start program as well.

And yes, I've had to explain to a parent or grandparent that the darling of their eye that they're carrying, isn't really old enough yet to enter something.

That and our wet-flesh (dripping or leaking fluid through fresh damage/split) rule (we had 3 we refused to let enter this year for that, one possible entry was set down on a form and it left a pretty nasty mess) have been the two rules that are the hardest to deal with genteely and politely, but they are for fairness.

At 15 the grower is in high school, and we do go into the Ag classes in the spring to sign people up and give them help if they need.

Your weighoff may vary, but these guidelines have been working for us.

If we have to DQ a pumpkin, another judge is specifically called in, if not two, to doublecheck the defect. If it's my entry and there's a DQ I want it found and I'd rather have mine DQ'ed than let go. That's the way the rules are written, and that's how they should happen.

We put all the rules and an OTT chart on the table, and make packets for each judge with rules and an OTT chart so if needed they can be referred to. We needed that this year to doublecheck how to measure a few things (tall sunflower, and what was a DQ for a LG)

Yes Judging takes thick skin but. Thanks to everyone that steps up to help get it done!

10/5/2011 1:54:59 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Russ, was 435" too big, or too small? Just curious? Peace, Wayne LOL
PS...Thick skin is certainly a necessity!!!

10/5/2011 2:57:05 AM

Team Munson

This fall we sent out a judging handbook to all sites to use as an aide to help judge questionable fruit. We work tirelessly to help make the judging a uniform standard for all GPC sites. We are always looking for ideas to help this process out & hope to make a DVD to better help our sites.

Please remember we don't get paid for this the judges at the sites don't get paid for this & I assure all involved do the best we can. If you have an issue you must address it at the site the day of the event. After that all judges decissions are final we can not do anything about an issue unless it is documented at the site the day of the show by all parties involved.

There are some great points here & I have full confidence in all the people running the Elk Grove weigh-off & if there is an issue they will handle it in a proffesional manner.

Dave

10/5/2011 10:32:59 AM

Eugene,OR

Dave, I think that the intructional video is a great idea. I think that it is important for everyone (even newbies who don't have a clue who anyone is) to be able to easily identify who the judge is. It would be as easy as having them wear a distinctive hat which identifies them as the GPC Judge. Maybe one way we could get experienced judges who are compensated--but not really--is to have a rule which states that if you win a contest overall one year, that you will be the judge the next year.

10/5/2011 12:14:02 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Zach,

Very professional and a great post. Thank You

10/5/2011 2:15:29 PM

Williston, VT

Vineman, I like your idea of an impartial judge, someone who doesn't have an entry in the competition. May be the GPC could set up a database with "volunteer" judges that would be willing to travel to other weigh-off sites and the GPC could "assign" judges. That would potentially alleviate the awkward situation of a friend having to DQ a friend or the perceived conflict of interest (if the judge has an entry). The hat is also a good idea. Dave, I like the idea of an instructional DVD. And Dave congrats on the huge pumpkin and to you too Vineman (I hope all goes smooth and it goes heavy for you) - it's going to be a great weekend, we will all be watching the GPC results page with bated breath - so coordinators please update your results asap :-) Thanks

10/5/2011 5:03:01 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Kudo's to Zach, and he really nailed it w/ the need for volunteer's at weigh-off sites!!! I was at Allardt last wknd, (small weighoff) & helped w/ doing OTT measurements...more than one grower, was watching their entry be measured, and did not like the results...but did not offer to help!!! Kinda strange, I know...but True!!! It is a great sport/hobby, but will get better, if more folks are willing to help!!! Peace, Wayne
PS...thanks to my measuring team...Lil Jimmie Wallace, & Chris Kent!!!!

10/6/2011 1:36:42 AM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

If you're the one that grew it, and you've been doing enough 'punkin groping', you get into habit where the tape gets plopped. And the spots on the ground to run it to, and so on. You take it into the weighoff, it's no longer sitting on the same spot, and... someone else eyeballing it on where to park the tape, may not pick your favorite place, but they're doing it proper, and ... remember that. The persons doing the measure should know how to measure and they're doing it right too, just not 'your way'. Their numbers might not be exactly what you got, but...

If you don't agree, volunteer to help measure and not just your fruit. Weighoff always needs some hands to help out!

10/6/2011 2:48:58 AM

West Sacramento Ca.

Wow, Zack, Ann Brian Judy and all other CSD pumpkin team workers and volunteers. In my opinion you all do a fantastic job.World class. I have never seen anyone treated with disrespect.In the future maybe we could have a judgeing team made up of three judges so any dispute would be handled quickly and without bias while takeing the brunt of the pressure off of one person.I am sorry I was not up to helping out this year but hope to help measure or whatever needs doing in 2012.Thank you all for a great weigh off and Regatta.Scott

10/9/2011 2:34:25 AM

Elk Grove, CA

OkieGal,

I would be interested in copies of your rules in regards to the youth as well as for the information on your "wet-flesh" rule for our weigh-off - not for our regatta where wet flesh is encouraged (http://www.egcitizen.com/articles/2011/10/11/feature_story/doc4e8b8c855bb09494133200.txt) !

Could you please email me at [email protected] - Curcubits if you get a chance could you email me as well.

10/12/2011 12:16:35 PM

Elk Grove, CA

whoops [email protected]

10/12/2011 12:17:09 PM