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South Bloomfield, Ohio

In my ten years of growing, I've never seen or heard of an instance, until this season, main vines decaying without either the stump foaming or the secondaries exhibiting the same symptoms.

I have some really great pumpkins at the end of these mains and, until a couple of weeks ago after a particularly violent storm, had the healthiest plants ever at this point in the season. All foliage is healthy looking and cupped upward, but the mains seem to want to expand in circumference, split, and decay. I have treated each main with peroxide solution and Captan to no avail.

The difference seems to be that the buried vines remain healthy and viable, but they feed into the main which feeds the pumpkin and ultimately has no advantage for the pumpkin.

No two growing seasons are ever the same and we have had the hottest, most humid, and rainiest season I can recall.

Has anyone else ever experienced this phenomena and figured out the reason for it?

8/10/2011 9:41:32 PM

Rhode Island

the extra large main vine could very well be a combination of excess nitrogen or nitrogen fixing products. the rotting can be attributed to the excess rain. especially if the mains are covered.

8/11/2011 5:06:01 AM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Thanks for the reply pap. No nitrogen has been added except in the form of kelp meal added to the trenches when burying secondaries. Secondaries had either self-terminated or been terminated by me by the third week of July and the main has never been covered with soil or been shaded.

I tend to lean toward excess rain as the culprit unless someone else can share a similar experience. These things have been growing at an ungodly rate and I think the mains have been doing the same and splitting.

8/11/2011 5:48:21 AM

Williamsburg,KY

Joe, I believe I have experienced the same problem. I sent off samples to the Extension Office and they called it bacterial soft rot. When the vine splits it allows bacteria in the soil to enter the vine and cause oozing and rot. There are no chemical controls for bacterial soft rot. Wounds either from vine splits, which happens in high moisture conditions or insect damage. It has been a horrible year for me here in KY. Lots of rain kept the patch wet, I only used my drip lines once and that was just to check them.
My tissue test in June indicated all was perfect, just a little low in N, but that was ok with me.
I was also told that because of our weather, imidicloripd would only last 3 weeks instead of the normal 4-6 weeks and perhaps cuke beetle took a nibble and well, there is your wound. I just posted some pics in my diary of what the bottom of vines looked like when I pulled the plant. After they show up in my diary I was gonna ask for comments. So..what are you going to do for next year...??? is the question. All comments and suggestions are welcome..Croley

8/11/2011 9:27:57 AM

Joliet, IL

I have it here and have found the plants that got hit hardest by wind are affected the most. the leaves along the main were stressed hard but did not snap off in heavy winds. There were very small splits/fissures forming over time at the base of the leaf stalks where the leaf attaches to the main closer to the vine. Just like a cut or scratch on us, this is an entry place for infection. Rot spores are everywhere all the time and more plentiful this year in high heat humidity and heavy rains. I scraped clean the superficial browning at these areas and used a butter knife to clean out cracks of browning without cutting deeper into the vine. Then I use a diluted bleach solution and a napkin and rub off remaining browing to green firm flesh. Then captan applied liberally. Then for preventative reasons I place captan liberally on all main vine junction for preventative help to kill spores that land in these areas.

8/11/2011 11:38:14 AM

Bristol R.I. USA

Thank God you posted this. Early on a day after i took down my hoophouses, we got hit with 35 to 40 mile an hour winds. It=took off 40 percent of my leaves early on. I came home from work to plants that where completly flattened. The 991 Urena ant had a huge split in the stump due to the heavy weight of some leaves. I cleaned the stump up and a few weeks later found that more leaves where rotting. I broke out the bleach and totally cleaned and unburied the vines. I allowed to dry then mounded the soil over it. It appeared to be rotting near the stem and vines. By cleaning the vines like this no doubt I killed most if not all the myco I layed down. I still fear another round of this. At first I thought it was gunny stem blight. I totally think this has and is holding me back. I'm not sure if I was suffering from the same issues but it does raise much questions for me. As of now the plant eems to be making okay gains but nothing great. I havr been keeping the patch wetter then years before.

8/11/2011 12:56:23 PM

Pataskala,OH

On the patch tour the other day it looks to me like your plants have a excess of some nutrients because some of the leaves look bloated. I do not see plants that look like the ones you have anywhere else. What do you do to your soil? lol But obviously the benefits of this outweigh the disadvantages because the pumpkins you have growing are huge.

8/11/2011 1:16:23 PM

Deer Park, WI

I feel Mr. Croley's comments are spot-on. Heat and humidity are the two most potent environmental factors that promote pathogen growth. These same environmental factors also put the plant at risk for injury. Quick recap- a plant needs to evaporate moisture to keep water moving through its vasculature. High soil moisture will fill the pipeline, high humidity will slow evaporation (transpiration). The most pronounced manifestation of these circumstances are the "foamers", however I believe that tissue injury can occur on a less obvious level. High pressure in the vasculature may cause microtears in the vine tissue, opening it up for pathogen infection as Mr. Croley alluded to.

Solution? Temperature/Moisture/Airflow-controlled greenhouse.

Plan B: let vine tips grow. Apply beneficial microbes (such as Actinovate) in both foliar and drench (careful here) forms. Pull down your wind protection to allow copious airflow.

8/11/2011 1:51:14 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

I was hoping to get responses such as these. When I read Croley's, shazzy's, and then Joze's comments, I became convinced that prevention may have been out of the question. I've been injecting Subdue Maxx every three weeks.

And Kenny, I had the same kind of damage after that storm and noticed my problem shortly afterward. I don't think I've been pushing too early because the fruits continue to grow well without splits. My concern is that there won't be enough healthy plant in September to put me over the top.

Your replies are VERY much appreciated.

8/11/2011 5:50:49 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

And Nic, your comments are appreciated as well. If you could have only seen those plants a week earlier before the storm.....

8/11/2011 5:53:27 PM

Ohio

Joe, another prevention is to try and have a nitrogen deficency to where the plants has light yellow leaves that doesnt grow secondaries vines like my plants has, then you wont have to worry about big mains and scondaries with splits in them that grow huge pumpkins..LOL

Good luck Joe, I hope you keep them big guys going and you get everthing dried out, it sure would be nice to see you in the winners circle this year.

8/11/2011 8:56:22 PM

Williamsburg,KY

Joe, or anyone else interested in my misery..my pics are in my diary..have time take a look.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=166852
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=166853
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=166854
Some ugly stuff. This was found on the main vine as well as secondarys..My season ended early.

If anyone has any comments, please share them. I am not sure what I will do next season. How can you control the rain? How can I keep the vine from sitting on the wet ground? I want to grow me a big en.....

Maybe next year it will be a dry year, one can only hope.

8/11/2011 9:19:36 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Thanks Brooks. In my mind, nitrogen is probably the toughest nutrient to guage at any time of year reardless of how many soil tests you do. As most of us know, lightning plays a big role in creating available nitrogen. Actually, I had concentrated on limiting nitrogen this year, concentrating on foliage color to guage it. I had the best pollination and retention rate ever this year. I believe that all the rain we've had this year, combined with the high humidity levels for an extended period of time, created the perfect conditions described by Joze.

The season continues.....for now.

8/11/2011 9:56:27 PM

Ohio

Croley, I am experiencing the same problems you posted in your diary. It's a season ender for me too.

8/11/2011 10:23:23 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Mizz Bend..., and awl?...just a random thought, but if sand is placed under pkn to drain water away, and stop rotting issues...could you also spread sand around the stump? to due the same? Peace, Wayne

8/11/2011 11:21:57 PM

Williamsburg,KY

Wayne, I had that same thought. If I was to put like a raised area of sand under the vines..would that dry faster, drain better?? Instead of placing the vines in a trench for covering (which I Did Not do this year), make a small ridge of sand for the vine to rest on?? Any one have thoughts on this?
Tim T..dang sorry to hear you had the same.
There is always next year.

8/12/2011 7:23:59 AM

Joliet, IL

For the reasons joze mentioned I have just began using cal carb because I never wanted to impede transpiration rates with high heat humidity rains and heavy misting to cool leaves.

8/12/2011 10:18:16 AM

Deer Park, WI

Folks- I'd personally discourage the use of sand in the patch. Over the years, accumulation of sand can drastically affect your soil profiles. While the logic of elevating the vine above the soil line to improve drainage is sound, I just dont feel as though that is a solid long term strategy.

simply spreading sand on top of a heavy soil will not make the water go away any faster or reduce pathogen pressure in a hot,humid year.

Shazzy- Im curious to hear more thoughts on your rationale for the Calcarb. I was under the impression this product increased intracellular CO2 levels at the leaf surface, thereby possibly leading to less aggressive stomatal opening, ultimately reducing transpiration. Simply my speculation and I could be way off.

8/12/2011 10:33:05 AM

Williamsburg,KY

Thanks Joze..no sand...now to figure out plan B.

8/12/2011 11:15:59 AM

Joliet, IL

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=10&p=331505

Joze, this thread and the cal carb testominial page both describe how it helps the plant reduce respiration and or transpiration. I want my plants in the high heat combined with high humidity and heavy misting along with multiple 2 plus inch rain events over the course of july had me delay using the product until conditions are right for the benefits to outweigh retaining even more water in the plants when they are having a hard enough time dealing with the humidity and transpiration rates. I used it last year a little earlier by 2 weeks but last july wasn't as bad as this year. Lower dew points and humidity levels with the weather now has the plants water intake and transpiration working over drive and now with mature leaves, I will hopefully keep a more balanced water flow through the plant and get the benefits of increased co2 and possibly calcium uptake for the final push and extend my half way multiplier of pumpkin growth from day 37 or day 38 to more like day 40 to day 43.

8/12/2011 12:25:32 PM

Joliet, IL

Nice grammar in a marathon run on sentence. I think you get the jist. Lol.

8/12/2011 12:29:03 PM

Joliet, IL

Basically humid wet hot conditions I feel are the wrong time to hold more water in a plant. if this product does this, then certain conditions are not the right time to use it for the benefits compared to possible problems of too much water in a plant. This is my rationale summed up a little better. There have been discussions about possible stump blowouts or even like you stated the main segment joints fissuring and is it possible that cal carb contribute to it. I am not sure and will not say it does either way, but it makes sense in my mind to use it in lower humidity conditions and not after big rain events.

8/12/2011 12:37:50 PM

Deer Park, WI

Thank you for clarifying, Shazzy. I had misinterpreted your initial post, thinking you were using Calcarb during high heat and humidity.

I may be sounding a bit like a broken record, but I do believe that a potential solution to the damaged-diseased plants so many of us are experiencing this year is allowing a select number of vine tips to perpetuate growth.

Scientific Fact: the vasculature (xylem, phloem) in new growth is linked up with the vasculature that feeds the pumpkin. Therefore, encouraging the maturation of new growth, leaves AND secondary roots, will ultimately contribute to the overall growth and health of the plant. Those crazy tertiaries that pop out of nowhere? Maybe they need to be trained...

I know this doesnt sound sexy. Its not a chemical or a trick that will overhaul your plant. Its simply a sound, logical strategy for plant management.

8/12/2011 1:22:30 PM

Joliet, IL

Joze, I like what your saying and keep playing the record cuz it ain't broken. Lol. Dale M. has given great cred to your theories and observations this year.

I do believe that if you have the room, why not let the main tip grow or even a few sendaries at the ends of the plants. But some of us backyard growers do not have the luxury of space. With this in mind, some tert growth as you are saying might be allowed but on a plant specific basis. I have observed that some plants are way more prolific at producing pop up terts. Some plants throw them all season and need constant continual pruning especially within the first 30 to 40 days of pumpkin growth to harness the energy to the fruit. Some plants do not throw as many. If a plant throws many all season then the continual growth of new ones and pruning them should mean the hormones from continual producing of plant should be high even when pruning. A plant barely producing any may be allowed to leave a few grow longer then pruned as another shows. Then after 40 days old of pumpkin let a certain healthy amount form plant specific and prune excess and allow some to grow. I have removed many old tired leaves within first 6' to 8' radius of the stump and allowing pop ups there to fill in the holes for some fresh leaves after day 70 for late slow long term pumpkin growth. As a community anyways we can all increase our late season growth to increase the half way multiplier day into the 40 day plus range will lead us to 2000.

8/12/2011 2:45:46 PM

Joliet, IL

If some grow longer genetically and a trend for a certain seed produces longer late season growth with all else being equal, it must be considered also a genetic characteristic. Health of a plant means everything. But if heavy hitters have healthy or semi healthy plants all the way til weigh off yet some seeds pack it on late, then crossing for this characterstic along with large shell and heavy density thick walled fruit, we will get there sooner. Greg sliwka from illinois have had many discussions and would like to get 3" core samples from pumpkins and calculate different densities of flesh based on core size from exterior wall to interior ending point and calculate a density of flesh. This would be a consistant way to track not only wall thickness genetics but actual density genetics. Take a 3" block of pine compared to a 3" block of a hard wood tree for example. A little off subject on this thread...but I love to ramble when I get on a roll. Lol

8/12/2011 2:46:22 PM

Joliet, IL

And to clarify, I meant in the second to last post that by allowing interior terts in certain areas form around day 40 to day 50 means you will have some new established fresh producing leaves for late season growth after day 65 or 70 and on or even sooner. It is a balancing act of harnissing energy and creating leaves to produce more at different stages of fruit development.

8/12/2011 2:53:49 PM

Muddy Waters

I think its in the seed These diseases carry over in the seed!I bet this will turn out to be true in a few years it will be totally obvious!

8/12/2011 4:42:46 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Some great discussion here. We've been blessed with strong high pressure here for the past three days and plant deterioration has stabilized, giving us a breather for now. But nighttime temps have also dropped and slowed growth a bit.

And maybe you have a point there Mark. I have two plants with no issues whatsoever...The 703 EST and the 1207 Young. Funny that they both have the shortest mains to the pumpkin.

In the remaining plants, what I've noticed is the outer layer of the main peeling and taking on a shredded appearance. Again, the buried secondaries show no signs of distress.

8/12/2011 10:48:55 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

same here Joe, Main vine looks like a dry corn stalk on the outside.

8/13/2011 9:15:24 AM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

That's a very good analogy Kenny and describes the condition to a tee.

8/14/2011 11:32:19 AM

Redmond, Washington; U.S.A.

Joe, just curious if you cut the main vine after the fruit on this one. I had a plant do that to me last year. It was one of the plants that I cut the main vine right at the pumpkin. -Ryan

8/14/2011 9:54:28 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

Joe I was on track to have a pumpkin well over 1000 lbs. The humidity and the heat took a toll on the main vines. The main vine right by the stem was soft without the the classic green and yellowing of the normal Atlantic Giant vines. After seeing the area I used a solution of bleach and water to dry the area out. Within a few days it appeared to dry up however the damage was evident. I believe that the vine was a victim of the humidity and heat causing them to slowly rot out. Thank God I was able to stop it although I know that the bleach on the main really hurt my growing this year given the situation It worked out for the best, Luckily I was able to stop the infection before it took the main out. It didn't leave much room as the area was 2 feet before the stem. Shazzy mentioned something about some seeds having the potential to have a late season growth, I have heard that the 991 Urena does that and maybe that can be looked at. Needless to say this issue has left me with a smaller then normal pumpkin but so far she'll make it to the scales. After the season is done I'll be burning the vines so the compost pile wont be infected with what ever the plant has or had.

8/15/2011 9:37:22 AM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Monster Grower:

No, I did not cut the mains after the pumpkins. In fact, my intention was to let them grow forever, but a hard rain caused them to self-terminate. They all made it to about 10 feet beyond the pumpkins.

8/15/2011 9:28:59 PM

Bloomington, IN

Kenny, when you pull the plants, you are still leaving a ton of roots behind. Whatever infects an AG during one season is going to be around year after year no matter what you do with your plants. Thats why I don't have a problem composting them straight. Burning is just a waste of time and energy. And if you are fortunate enough to have the space to rotate patches, simply compost the plants by the patch they were grown from and amend that patch with the compost.

8/16/2011 12:36:00 AM

Redmond, Washington; U.S.A.

Thanks for the response Joe. Sorry to here about the vine rot. I haven't had any problems with it this season and I hope that you don't have anymore problems with it next year.

8/16/2011 11:44:08 PM