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Seattle, WA

http://newsletter.vitalchoice.com/e_article002106318.cfm?x=bjs86jk,bk2pD4M9

5/19/2011 2:37:19 PM

Pataskala,OH

Of course if you kill all the weeds it will leave room for other stuff to grow. A lot of the good microorganisms we add to our patches are supposed to crowd out bad microorganisms. So using roundup in pumpkin patches is probably not as bad as using it in a bean field since we add other organisms back into the soil.

Also GMO crops are not being used in a way that is helpful to humanity. Companies that create GMO seeds are doing it so they can make farmers dependent on their products. If they are trying to help create better crops they would leave roundup out completely and just make the plants more tolerant to weeds instead of adding the extra product they can make more $ on. Also another thing that is harmful to the soil I notice is local farmers are not rotating anymore. The farmer next to my house has planted beans for 5 years in a row. I'm sure that is probably going on in a lot of places.

5/19/2011 4:26:48 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Nic,

Understanding the economics of large scale farming is not quite that simple. GMO's were created with the farmer's production costs and overall profit in mind as well as the profit margin of the company who manufactures the GMO. GMO's have resulted in less equipment, labor, and materials required to produce each acre of product. Very simple economics actually.

I would challenge you to show up at that farmer's door and ask him why he has planted beans five years in a row. I'm sure his answers will result in even more questions by you and you will walk away with a better understanding of farming economics.

I have learned over the years that the American farmer is the best caretaker of the land.

5/19/2011 9:53:43 PM

Martinsburg, Pa

I agree Joe!!!!!

5/19/2011 11:22:47 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

If you get the chance watch the movie "the food we eat" it shows how many farmers throughout Canada and the U.S. Have to use pesticides and products like round up ready seeds just to be compedative. I hope i'm not getting off the point that some of you are trying to make. I agree that farming ecomonics is complicated at least for me. I ALSO agree that the farmer is and will always be the best care taker of the land. With production costs of growing commercially I believe that some quality has been lost. At any rate if you get the opportunity see the documentary I suggested although it doesn't specifically mention pumpkins it certainly does have some educational value pertaining to farming ecomomics and the evolution of growing. It does mention the above topic.

5/20/2011 12:05:34 AM

Iowa

Tad thanks for posting. Nic I agree with you. Joe and Kenny, once apon a time that care taker thing was true, now show me a farmer that can tell us about what they are putting down and what they are growing, better yet show me a farmer that is not owned. To take care of the the land means doing what you know, not what you can save or make.. I once showed a farmer a study done on 3rd generation rats fed GMO seed as his grandson played next to us,he said yeah, that may be true but I can make more money this way. I picked up my son and walked away. BTW Joe, GMO's were not created for production here in the US,, we just got stuck with them when the other countries would grow them,, know is that simple economics??

5/20/2011 3:38:07 AM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Krug,

All the farmers in my area are third, fourth, and fifth generation. They know when to let the land sit fallow, rotate their crops, leave a little for the wildlife, and use no-till practices to preserve topsoil. Watching the good farm land around me become swallowed up by housing developers sickens me, as the land becomes lost forever. Over-use of chemicals and their introduction into the environment was of great concern as I was growing up and GMO's have been a major factor in the reduction of that concern.

5/20/2011 5:51:51 AM

East Jordan, MI

Did anyone actually READ the article Tad posted?

The end doesn't always justify the means.

5/20/2011 8:07:23 AM

Pataskala,OH

I read the article and was commenting on it. I know the economics of farming are complicated, but I was using roundup as an example. If they can engineer a crop to be weed tolerant instead of making it round up ready wouldn't it cost a farmer less ?

5/20/2011 8:13:51 AM

Bristol R.I. USA

Nic, I've heard that round up ready products have been used by a bunch of farmers and the actual seeds are patented by the company monsanto, Monsanto is the makers of Round up. They make their round up ready seeds by engineering then to withstand the killing properties of round up by infusing a gene into the seed they infuse it by giving it a virus. (this is all from the film) For me to articulate this would be so hard.

Nic I don't think that your totally wrong at all. In fact I think your right on some of your points. Yes Farming economics is beyond my scope of knowledge. I do understand that some farms get subsidies from the government no matter how much of a crop they produce.I've heard that farmers are also engineering seeds to grow fruit that has a better shelf life so they can be shipper to farther distances Sacrificing taste and mineral content. All this information is on the film SO I'm mentioning it to add to the forum. Good post and good feedback, Nic you gotta see that film You'd like it.

5/20/2011 8:42:21 AM

The bottom of New Jersey

Farmers are like any other diverse group of people - there are many who care a great deal about their job and the impact it has on their surroundings, and some who don't give a crap at all. We may be doing a much better job now than we did 50 years ago in taking care of our farmland, but that doesn't mean we can stop trying to improve.

5/20/2011 8:43:56 AM

Johnston, Iowa

pumpkinJesus has a good point. Farmers are a diverse group. Some are great caretakers of the land and some don't give a crap. Some have great nutrient management and soil conservation practices, and others practices fill the lakes and streams in this state with manure and chemicals; all the while cashing subsidy checks while grain prices are higher than ever. The thing I keep thinking about is with all the people that are complaining about GMO's, may also be the one's complaining about high food prices. If growing GMO's will result in higher yeilds, more profit for the farmer, and more food, the ag industry will continue to follow this path of least resistance.

5/20/2011 9:16:15 AM

Minnesota([email protected])

Joe Pumpkin,
I wonder if you've ever heard of Malabar Farm? I read that book many years ago. I wonder if Malabar farm was(is?) near your region in Ohio? That book has some good reading on land stewardship.

5/20/2011 7:46:41 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Very good thread Tad and I didn't mean in any way to demean you Nic. No doug, I have heard of malabar farm but have no insight here.

I speak from personal experience and interaction with farmers over my 53 years here in Pickaway county. I've had many conversations with local farmers and have asked many questions over the years. I began my current career as a Journeyman truck technician in the field of agriculture working for a man who owned a Massey ferguson equipment dealership and owned 31,000 acres of farmland. The land was his living and taking care of it was in his best interest.

At that point in my life, 4% of the U.S. population was engaged in the occupation of farming. Today, that number has dwindled to 2% and yet yields have continued climb and we're still able to feed the world and pass on our knowledge to other countries. It's easy to point fingers at the farmer when commodity and, ultimately, food prices increase, but the farmer makes the least amount of profit compared to the middle man and the retailer. The farmer assumes all the risk and believe me, he/she would rather plant a crop than be paid not to.

5/20/2011 8:46:19 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

I apologize if I've gotten too far off-topic here, but agriculture is one of my greatest passions.

5/20/2011 8:48:55 PM

Linden, Mi.,

Joe, got your back on that one!

5/20/2011 9:20:08 PM

Kenny, not sure of the exact film you're referencing, but I would suggest not necessarily taking the claims of any film, whether marketed as a documentary or otherwise, at strict face value.

It may be difficult to believe, but many filmmakers, like farmers, are trying to make a profit and have been known to take artistic license with (or complete divergence from) the truth in order to enhance profits and further political or social agendas.

Shocking, I know.

5/23/2011 3:48:06 PM

Las Cruces NM

I read the article but why haven't any of you questioned the validity of the arguements? To quote the same Don Huber mentioned: "When scientists become afraid to even ask the questions … that's a serious impediment to our progress," ...

First, my understanding is glyphosate is mixed with salts and works by absorbsion through leaf where it inhibits enzyne critical for amino acid production thus killing the plant. It's basically inactive in soil so can't be used as a preemergent and it breaks down rapidly in the environment. It is considered the safest of herbicides. Genetically engineer resistance crops involves a specific process useing three bacteria genes.

Since it is used on follage, how can it effect the soil? Runoff would be dilutive. From dead plants ... it decays rapidly in the environment. And because it decays rapidly, there is no soil buildup. The salts used might be a concern, but that is not the glyphosate. And soil is so complicated with so many variables, how can one isolate so as to even prove (or disprove) this?

For weeds to become immune, it would take generations. So plants would have to go full cycle to prduce seeds -- do farmers wait that long to use glyphosate? And generation after generation ... but doesn't glyphosate kill the seeds as well? And shold one survive, what is the chances it will mutate sufficiently or survive the next round? Seems it would need the same complicated gene splicing in a natural way and seems bit unlikey it would occure naturally but I certainly can't rule it out, rather I'm just pointing it out.

I have a lot of questions (more), but if an article doesn't answer the questions, it has to be questioned. So my point is not to take anything at face value but to critically review it. Huber said "When scientists become afraid to even ask the questions … that's a serious impediment to our progress". I say when people don't ask questions, it's an impediment period.

5/23/2011 11:29:03 PM

Seattle, WA

SWdesert,

This may help answer some of your questions. It does have in impact on soil biology, which will in turn effect soil fertility and health.

http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/jan10/scientists_find_negative_impacts_of_GM_crops.php

There's plenty more info out there, but it's late and I just had this one handy.

~Tad

5/24/2011 3:40:05 AM

Ashville, Ohio

as far as resistance goes sometimes farmers wait till weeds get too big and use only half or 1x rate when they should maybe use 2x to knock down the bigger weeds so thus building up the weeds tolerance and then in a year or 2 you end up with partial to full resistance. some weeds develope resistance quicker than others too!

5/25/2011 11:23:07 AM

Central Ca

No Bryan. Most farmers do not " wait till weeds get too big and use only half or 1x rate" on weeds. They wont be farmers for very long because they're throwing their money away. Where did you get that information? On our farm we make it extra hot so there's no chance the weeds will live. As far as soil biology goes...I've been spraying commercial weed spray in 2-4x's it's recommended strength and buried AG seeds in the same exact spot a week later with no problems. In fact, that patch does much better than other AG patches on our farm that aren't sprayed. Our soil tests report a high amount of bad bugs but, also report an extremely unusual high amount of good bugs. I work in a lab full time and on a 500+ acre family farm part time. I have an Agricultural degree and have helped worked with private and government research. I trust the farming practices we have today. Whether it's animals or plants American farmers are the best. I'd side with farmers every time. They're the, soaked in sweat, covered in dirt, hard, smart workin', don't-go-to-the-doctor-till-your-dieing dedicated individuals that I wish more people were like.

5/25/2011 11:57:10 AM

Bristol R.I. USA

Heatstroke, so in your opinion round up has no long term effect on soil biology and it can be used without any future repercussions.

5/25/2011 12:17:41 PM

Linden, Mi.,

Heatstroke, Amen, to what you said!!!!!!

I have used Roundup for years, never had or seen any problems.

5/25/2011 1:46:29 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Tad,

I read the article....very interesting....and Ill take note...too much of anything can be bad.....it juZt makeZ sense....and I'll try to error on the side of caution....thankZ for bringing articles like this to our reading attention to help us GrowZem BIG>

5/25/2011 3:26:14 PM

Ashville, Ohio

heatstroke I shoulda clarified that from fields I have seen working in weed research the ones that get resistance are the ones that have managment problems, butI know plenty of farmers big and small and sometimes they just can't get things sprayed when they need to, thats agriculture it happens. If every farmer did what you do and used correct rates or above 1x rates and were able to get it sprayed on time there would be less resistance problems in my opinion. oh I also have a agricultural degree and work in weed science full time!

5/26/2011 11:49:54 AM

Ashville, Ohio

I also assume you rotate chemistries as well that is also a big help for resistance. just my 2 cents

5/26/2011 11:53:05 AM

Central Ca

Yes, you assume correctly. Also, you have to give both sides of the story...that's why I posted in response to you. Working in the weed science field I'm sure you know that any data can be manipulated and that there's no such thing as unbiased results. What exactly do you work as in weed science?

5/26/2011 12:44:54 PM

Ashville, Ohio

Yea I know you can make things look as you want them, just look at all the companies ads but I work Ohio State so we are as unbiased as anyone (try to be as much as we can) since we are not selling anything. I help run all the weed research trials for corn, soybeans, wheat, and some forages, testing of new compounds, new tankmixes you name it we see it lol. basically anything you can think of, and we do work with glyphosate resitant weeds such as marestail and giant ragweeds, where we actually do field trials on farmers fields, the rest of our work is done at a university research farm. I agreed with what you said though I grew up on a farm still work on the farm for my father and other friends that need help, so I know what the real world is like not just small plots like my job.

5/26/2011 1:42:48 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Question Bryan: Has marestail always been resistant or has it DEVELOPED resistance to glyphosate? In my years as a railroad right-of-way herbicide applicator, I never found marestail to be a target of interest. What I DID find with various tank mixes is that we wound up SELECTING weed species such as foxtail and Virginia trumpet creeper due to the herbicides used and the time of year sprayed. We resolved that issue with second applications of different tank mixes.

When resistance issues came to the forefront in the eighties, we were able to write contracts which contained different active ingredients to prevent it.

5/26/2011 6:08:13 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

As a side note, ANYTHING green on a railroad right-of-way was targeted.

5/26/2011 6:09:41 PM

Ashville, Ohio

Joe, no it has developed over time, there are portions of the state that still may not be resistant but anymore if we get a call about it we treat it as all of it is resistant since its so widespread through out ohio. but like i said there may be a few a pockets that might not be but the seed and pollen from marestail travel so far and easily by the wind that it can spread from field to field or farm to farm pretty fast. giant ragweed is the one that there are just a few pockets of resistance most of the rest is still suceptible to glyphosate.

5/26/2011 6:45:54 PM

Central Ca

Thanks Bryan.

5/27/2011 2:35:54 AM