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Minnesota

I for one do think the secret is in the soil. I look at the growers in the past and see how they do. I look at other growers NOT growing giant pumpkin but are growing giant vegetables and doing very well. One of the growers that comes to mind is John Evans. I lived in Alaska like John, very close to the Matanuska Valley where he grows and it is not the climate. His soil is rich but not rich enough to make things grow large. As a matter of fact, everything that grows there is actually smaller in size than what you would see in the lower 48 states. He dont use grafting tricks, hormone tricks, or any other trick to manipulate size so why are we trying to do this? His plan is pretty simple, feed the plant with gazillions of nutrient converting bacteria's for antioxidance and vitality. after all my years of growing, and not just giant pumpkins, i think the secret is in the soil and this will be the focus for the new year. It would be good to hear some other thoughts on what we could do to make better soil.

1/13/2011 9:41:03 AM

Minnesota

Doesn't Alaska get about 22 hours of sunlight in the Summer? Perhaps it isn't in the soil but in the sky?

1/13/2011 11:40:52 AM

Marion, Wisconsin

safehouse, I think most actual fruit grow occurs during periods of darkness when the plant is storing the energy it produced during the day. to much light is not good. i might be wrong though.

1/13/2011 12:13:15 PM

Deer Park, WI

Milk.

Dean's point is an interesting one. Whether or not "the secret" is truly in the soil, it is the variable that we perhaps the most control over and subsequently, ability to maximize.

Indeed, the complexity of the soil environment provides endless opportunities to intervene. From microbes to nutrients to water capacity and beyond, the slate is wide open for improvement.

My thoughts on what we can do to make our soil better? Simple, really: understand it.

Having watched Stevens go from Halloween pumpkin to WR pumpkin in a very short timeframe, I believe one of the most important factors contributing to his success was relentless commitment to "dialing in the numbers" on his soil test.

There's an adage that goes "you cant manage what you cant measure". Applies to medicine, business, and, of course, big pumpkins.

Success in the garden is far more dependent on a $15 soil test than a $750 seed. *shriek*

I've digressed. This year I'll be focusing on "dialing in" micronutrients that are slightly deficient. I'll be looking at ways to increase water holding capacity. I need to bump up my Cal/Mag ratio. And perhaps most exciting, is gaining a better understanding of how all these microbials on the market contribute enhancing growth and preventing disease.

1/13/2011 12:33:42 PM

Minnesota

all very awsome points Joze. and the most interesting to me at this point. 2 years ago was the first i started using micronutrients in with the ferts and both years i had the largest and best looking plants ever. I am working with fertimix on micro's for the new year but they cant help me until i get the numbers. I have lacked on the soil tests and think that has been my largest downfall. I will spend the money on my test so i know where im at and where my ece's are at. I think soil combinations will allow us to increase plant pressure without blowing the stumps or getting the disease if it is a disease.

1/13/2011 1:18:23 PM

Minnesota

safehouse, i think the byproduct of small plants are due to the constant sun. Plant grow in the dark, not the light and this would prove true by all the natural vegetation up there being very short. Even the spruce trees at maturity are very short trees. I think John Evans is making very good teas with sugars and micronutrients and is the sole reason for his success. I think he has over 20 world records to his name so his food is doing something right. I noticed the clover by the compost beds is more than triple the size and vigor of the other clover in my yard. Makes you wonder. I think we need to increase the whole spectrum of fertility, not just adding nitro, phos. pota.

1/13/2011 1:23:00 PM

Anamosa, IA [email protected]

Soil testing is important, but there is more to managing soil than just the NPK and micronutrients. Soil particle size (sand, silt, clay) in the right combination. Organic matter (carbon). Soil structure & compaction (if I till up my soil too much rain makes it compact and crust over) Water holding ability to have enough water available but good drainage so it isn't too wet and promoting disease. Worms, bacteria and fungi, the right kinds in the right amounts. PH( some amendments raise it, some lower it) Slope matters too: too steep and you gett more runoff and erosion of your good topsoil. Probalby more factors that elude me.

As far as sunlight and darkness goes, it takes both. Sunlight so the leaves can convert carbon dioxide into carbohydrates, and darkness so the plant can store it in the fruit. Maybe the small size of Alaska native plants is more due to the cold temperatures and increased snow. Bigger plants get broken down quicker by tons of snow.

1/13/2011 1:50:40 PM

Lloydminster/AB

I think soil is important but the whole process is like going up a ladder, miss a couple of rungs here and there and we can't make it to the top. We need good soil, good weather, perfect moisture and good bright sunshine. Then we plant a dud seed and the ladder breaks. Oh and I completely disagree that most fruit growth occurs a night! if it does......of course where I live we only have about 5 hours of "dark"

1/13/2011 3:50:46 PM

Midway, UT

The soil is a big factor but don't forget the work factor in growing giants. I've talked to and watched to many heavy hitters to know that soil by itself isn't the only factor to becoming a heavy hitter. Burying vines and being diligent with a plant is also a big factor in how these things grow. The soil is like the recipe to making a good soup. No matter how many times I follow my mom's soup recipe I can't seem to get it to taste exactly like hers. There is soil, technique AND timing to growing these things big and often these things only come by experience and a little trial and error. There is no one silver bullet. All the stars have to line up in order for good things to happen. That is why even the heavy hitters don't get over 1,300 pounds every year.

1/13/2011 3:51:38 PM

Minnesota

Dean C,
Perhaps we should sit down and discuss your theories on short spruce trees.. You know what they say about small hands right ? Small gloves.... The key to a WR record pumpkin is obviously directly tied into the amount of hot air the grower creates while working in the patch which explains Chris's success and also why I am very confident in my own abilities ! lol Keep it going, Something will make sense.. Joe

1/13/2011 3:59:22 PM

Albert County, New Brunswick,CANADA

If you have ever seen a time lapse of a pumpkin growing ,you will observe the largest gains in the night.

1/13/2011 5:40:29 PM

Minnesota

safehouse, you find me a weighoff that we can get our spruce trees weighed at and i will gladly sit down with you and talk spruce.

LOL..............

1/13/2011 5:50:59 PM

Minnesota

Lets take Dave Stelts for instance, he is a top grower, has been doing this from the beginning i think. You get a plant of his and it looks phenominal. I wonder how much of what he is putting into his soil is transmitted through a seed?? I see diaries of people planting his seeds and the pictures of his plants look much more stellar than all the others in the patch. Could our patch prep be carrying out in the seed?

1/13/2011 5:53:54 PM

Minnesota

Dean, I think this cold weather and the excessive amounts of snow have begun to once again get to you.... I told you I cut down all my Spruce trees for Christmas! Largest weighed 43 pounds and was almost 5 feet tall....

1/13/2011 5:57:47 PM

Upa Creek, MO

For what it's worth, I only saw gains at night as well.

1/13/2011 6:53:43 PM

Minnesota

I noticed that when my pumpkins gains 4" in a 24hr. period, the pumpkin gained only 1" during the day and 3" during the night. I checked the growth of the pumpkin a long time ago to see if it was growing more during the day or more during the night and it definately grew more during the night. I think it has something to do with more pressure in the plant at night and the pressure is what is contributing to the energy flowing into the pumpkin. Makes sense as there is much more pressure in the plant starting in the evening and lasting until the sun comes up.

1/13/2011 7:02:44 PM

Deer Park, WI

Sink/Source fluid translocation: The pumpkin is the most potent sink (nutrient vacuum) on the plant. Leaves, notably growing leaves, are the second most potent sink on the plant.

Transpiration during the day redirects fluids away from the primary sink, this is a function of water mechanics. When transpiration ceases at night, the leaves no longer have its vacuum effect preferentially supporting its secondary status as a sink. Thus, it makes sense that pumpkins will grow minimally during the day and primarily at night.

Since the pumpkin does not have to compete with transpiration, its effect as the primary sink ensures it gets the bulk of fluid/nutrients during the night.

A structure's "sink potency" is partially governed by hormonal responses. It is primarily driven by differences in water potential. (might want to read up on that concept...its pretty involved).

1/13/2011 8:23:37 PM

Hamburg, NY

This is a little stupid but somewhat relevant:

http://wn.com/genotypes

1/13/2011 8:28:30 PM

Lloydminster/AB

I agree with what you are saying Joe. However my pumpkins never seem to do as well overnight. I think that maybe I have found a broken rung on my ladder. My night temps are lower than 50,perhaps the plant shuts down at temps that low and even though my pumpkin is covered it is now the plants game. Or maybe it is because I have nights that are very short, actual dark can be only a couple of hours,with a type of twilight at each end. I have full sun by 4:40. Vesseys was selling an outdoor time lapse camera......I have done some research into plant physiology and the thing is that there is a great deal of difference in the way plants react to environmental conditions so I'm thinking I need to observe a little closer.

1/13/2011 9:27:29 PM

Deer Park, WI

Don-

The rate of nutrient/fluid translocation in plants is highly temperature dependent. nighttime lows 50 or less during the peak growth phase would certainly shift the circadian growth rates.

Covering the pumpkin would do little to affect nighttime growth rates. Maintaining warmer temperatures in the leaf canopy would be ideal.

1/13/2011 9:50:52 PM

Muddy Waters

Plants shut down at 90 degrees,you will always get more growth at night in less nites are cold under 55 degrees.I believe its soil more important than seed.You can have the silver bullet go plant it in crappy soil you will get crap,Take a good(average) seed, plant in great soil you will get something nice,maybe even real big.Its in the soil!!

1/13/2011 10:48:17 PM

Anchorage Alaska

I agree about the soil being instrumental for good growth ,but I emailed Don Langevin, once about the sunlight conditions and he said the more the better...works for me.. the spruce tree thing is funny .100 ft tree's in my yard I never thought of short (block to much sun )..lol..

1/14/2011 12:23:23 AM

Muddy Waters

what are your evening temps during these long daylight periods Dale??

1/14/2011 7:12:53 AM

Ham Lake, Minnesota

never lose turgor pressure=big pumpkins!

1/14/2011 9:16:35 AM

The bottom of New Jersey

I imagine at Dale's latitude, he has very little transpiration issues during the day, so he probably gets more fruit growth during the daytime than those of us in hot areas.

1/14/2011 10:05:12 AM

Anchorage Alaska

Handy, In the anchorage area,the nighttime lows very rarely hit 60 ,mostly mid 50's during the warmer month's (2).The nearby Cook Inlet creates a pretty good cooling effect on our area, once you get inland thing warm up.We get around 21 hrs of daylight at solstice time.but it never really gets dark at night ,there's nothing like mowing your lawn at midnight wearing shades ..lol

1/14/2011 11:29:31 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

WOW...The year BiZ grew the BIG one...I had a automated timer that waZ watering hiZ plantZ at night...waZ supposed to come on underneath at 1100 AM did so at 11PM...lol went to fix it...and low and behold...it still watered at night....turned out the damn timer was watering night time still...thought it was just odd.... last year...waZ messing around....sent to the patch at night...was playin hide and seek in the dark hiding behind me pumpkin...BiZ was trying to find me....with hiZ flashlight....What amaZed me was during the day I woulda been covered in mudd....and As I hunkered down I noticed how dry my plantZ were.....hmmmmm could it be we need to water more a night too...? when the pumpkin is growing the most?

1/14/2011 2:30:12 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

PS....itZ the wormZ....they live in our soil and are most Precious.....they like to come out at night and drink....

1/14/2011 2:32:38 PM

Muddy Waters

You would very little growth at nite in those temps it would have to mostly grow before 10 pm regardless of sunlight.

1/14/2011 6:15:51 PM

Lloydminster/AB

Ok. So perhaps my growth takes place in what is to me late afternoon, say from 8:00 pm to 10:30 then slows slightly continues until say 5:00 am then goes higher until it gets warm which could be 10:30am. If I take measurements or observations at 7:am and 7:00 pm it would appear that growth was even. Now back to soil , when my soil gets out of wack I get about half the weight I should if I can even set fruit. Ph is my biggest concern though lately I've been battling k deficiency.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TC3-4TXDXNW-1&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F17%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1607673147&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=9efaf0d48f66e8d98c8542abf5d797d9&searchtype=a

That is one long URL !

1/14/2011 9:07:12 PM