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Deer Park, WI

"...a fissure, usually near the crown, that spontaeously opens and releases fluid."

Recognize this? The guys up here in WI (Stevens, Hopkins, Bogie, Ailts, et al) got a real good lesson in this odd occurrence.

According to record, growers have been experiencing this for years. What's going on?

I've given this some serious thought and have come to a logical conclusion. Work through the logic with me and lemme know your thoughts-

First- I am convinced foamers are *not* caused by disease. I am convinced foamers are simply a manifestation of water mechanics.

Consider this- The primary mechanism by which water is pulled into roots and dispersed into growing tissues is a process called transpiration, where water evaporating from leaf surfaces creates a vacuum inside the plumbing of the plant, forcing the roots to suck up surrounding water. This is scientific fact. Now think about the way our growing practices have greatly enhanced root systems and the plant's collective capacity to suck in water. Its ENORMOUS. A pumpkin doing 50+lbs a day needs one hell of a root system to push that much fluid into the plant.

12/7/2010 11:18:53 AM

Deer Park, WI

So...when you combine a massive root system, ample/excessive soil moisture, and hot, humid climatic conditions that decrease the evaporative effect, what you have is a water pressure sandwich. The roots continue to draw water, through both pressure and hormonal mechanisms. The leaves are not evaporating water at a sufficient rate. Where does the internal pressure go? It gets released.

And voila, you have a foamer. The vine bursts, and begins releasing fluid. Ever smell or taste this stuff? Its clean. Its not infected (at least initially). It continues to poor fluid, no matter how many fans or fungicides you apply. This is simple water mechanics in motion. The roots contine to draw water that has no place to go, except out through the vine (much to the grower's dismay).

The million dollar question is how to avoid them. I dont know if you can, really. You have to consider modifying one or more of the variables that contribute to the problem...root system...evaporation...soil moisture.

Perhaps supporting cell wall structure to withstand higher pressures. calcium? other minerals? Dunno...

Regardless, for those of you who have experienced foamers, I, until convinced otherwise, strongly believe this is not a pathogenic situation. Once realized, the "wound" needs to be cared for to prevent infection, however I do not believe the wound is caused by a disease. Rather, its a sign your little factory is humming along at breakneck speed and the ware house needs to more efficiently "unload its goods".

Happy Foaming.

12/7/2010 11:19:03 AM

Lexington, Ky

I'd say you're on to something. I would like to see the follow up to the attached link.

http://www.ovgpg.com/documents/articles/ovgpg6-09.pdf

12/7/2010 12:05:30 PM

Upa Creek, MO

I'd like to know the ratio of foamers to people that plant with the stump on a gradual mound. It seems adequate drainage with a mound and knowing your soil type is a good start for prevention.

12/7/2010 12:20:56 PM

Saegertown Pa.

This is somthing we have been dealing with for years, Ron Wallace did a article on this in there news letter called blowing the froth off mr foamy. If you go to OVGPG.com and go to articles you can read the article. Or copy and past the link that 1320 posted above. Fore anyone that has never had a mr foamy before welcome to are world.

12/7/2010 12:31:12 PM

Breslau, Ontario, Canada

Good one Joze,

I agree with you. I also have a theory that may sound absurd. I believe that perhaps people are "over-pruning" around the stump to optimize airflow,including cutting of the first or second set of secondaries. However, I believe that this is creating a large amount of fissures.
More importantly, if you consider the main vine as the main header for the trasportation of water and nutrients. Then in efect by cutting all these vines you are closing the valves on where a lot of water could have been going and ultimately raising the amount of hydraulic pressure in the vine in an area with many cuts and fissures.

...Hope that made sense?

12/7/2010 12:34:27 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

Joe,
Not to nitpick hear, but Bogie is from MN. You have enough top notch growers in WI. Bogie is one of ours;-) Back to the discussion at hand......

12/7/2010 2:19:23 PM

Deer Park, WI

Bogie mistake acknowledged. I return him back to MN authority. Tried to sneak one by but alas, was not successful.

12/7/2010 2:48:23 PM

Deer Park, WI

1320, Quinn, thank you for posting the link and referring to Ron's article. Admittedly, I should have read this before posting, recognizing that Ron, et al have already proposed a nearly identical explanation to the foamer issue.

Regardless, its good to know we are essentially on the same page. The plant scientist referenced in the article asked if humidity was considered as a factor. Based on what we know about the role of evaporation in water movement within the plant, it is logical to assume this is a driving factor.

Adding further evidence to the theory is the realization that WI/MN experienced a very wet, warm, and humid summer this year. Much moreso than in years past, a weather pattern that we have not experienced locally since the introduction of new growing practices that signifcantly expand root root capacity and likely genetic factors that drive unprecedented pumpkin growth.

Thinking further, I do believe John-D's suggestion regarding pruning strategies may be an important consideration. Aggressive dead-heading may in fact increase the probability of a blow out.

I'd like to hear from Quinn, others, in regards to their experiences with allowing vine tips to grow vs dead heading and how that may relate to blow out incidece.

12/7/2010 3:04:03 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Finally, a local advantage. I grow in the desert, and I've never had a foamer, not even close. No humidity, dense soil, no excess water and no foaming. I've never even seen one.

Never had a big one either, but who's counting...

So maybe I should be pushing it a lot more?

12/7/2010 5:48:52 PM

Northern Cambria, Pa.

Years ago we used to get quite a few here but in the last 5 we have had almost none. I believe rain protection on the stump has helped the most along with planting at an angle to reduce stress, early stump pruning to let in air and sunlight and possibly calcium drenches. The stump must be kept very dry from about mid June to the end of the season.

12/7/2010 8:43:59 PM

Minnesota

How about Bogie for an 1810 straight up, think about it. While we are at it, you can have Farve back too.

12/7/2010 8:51:19 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

I replied to a thread earlier this year pertaining to foaming stumps and hypothesized that, since I had never before experienced a foaming stump and was using CO2 for the first time, maybe the LACK of leaf transpiration was causing a back-up of water within my plants. We had an average rainfall year. It was just a thought. I lost five out of six stumps this year on new ground.

12/7/2010 11:12:24 PM

Soldiers Grove, WI

This year was the first year I ever experienced a foaming crown. I had 8 plants for competition all were deadheaded and perfectly manicured and every single crown foamed at one point or another within a three week period. The first foaming crown outbreak was approximately one week after I started deadheading. Also I noticed the vines themselves were filled with water. In the same patch my two sons each had a pumpkin plant. A 1658 Young and a 1636 Liggett. Neither of these two plants were pruned or manicured at all. These two plants never had a foaming crown. These plants produced one pumpkin each. The 851 and the 938. My wife also had a pumpkin plant in the same patch. This plant was not pruned or manicured and it did not have a foaming crown. The story gets better. In the same patch my brother had 8 plants for competition. All 8 of his plants were pruned and manicured but he never used any mycos or root innoculant when he buried his vines and he was more relaxed in his pruning strategy. Only 4 of his 8 plants had foaming crowns and these plants were easier to "fix". This is only my observation. I know that the 45" of total rain and all the heat and humidity was the main cause. I feel that my plants were more efficient at absorbing water/nutrients than the other plants in my patch and that is why I had the earliest trouble and the most trouble. The least efficient plants in the patch like my wife's plant never had any issues do to its inefficiency. That is also why my wife's plant was never on a world record pace. LOL! I feel there is a limit to how hard a person can push a AG plant before it begins to "self destruct" On the same token I know we would have been fine if we would have only had 1/2 as much rain. I guess I am going to have to build a green house!

12/8/2010 2:29:24 AM

Saegertown Pa.

Most years it's around the third week in July and 75 % of plant is terminated. My garden drains very well and it's on a slope so there isn't much water around the plant after a rain, and I keep my drip away from the stump. This year I did start covering the stumps after reading Larry's post last year about him doing that and it working for him. This year out of 12 plants I had four but we got almost no rain and that seems to help allot.

12/8/2010 5:33:16 AM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

My ground is exactly like yours Quinn and mid-July was the beginning of the end for me.

12/8/2010 6:53:07 AM

Muddy Waters

My first foamer was this year It started as a cracked joint at secondary just a few inchs down trunk it didnt seem to slow kin down at all.I was watering real heavy 200 gallons a day &more.I lost kin to stem split.Its on Diary for 2010.You may be right.I will keep trunk dryer this year maybe less water.

12/8/2010 7:15:20 AM

Gays Mills, Wisconsin

Last 3 years, 34 plants. 1 vine rot + 1 (first time) mild foamer this year.
Well drained sandy soil.
I used more mychos this year plus lots of nature's rain.
Stumps were huge!!!
I feel that I got a good mycho system going but the unknown was rain.
One of my suspected conclusions: mycho + lots of water increases foaming stump possibilities.
If we didn't get so much rain I suspect I would of have no problems, but at least I didn't have to water all year!
John

12/8/2010 8:42:01 AM

Western PA

I had what I thought was some kind of a bacterial infecttion on my biggest plant with my biggest fruit,but after reading this post maybe it was the start of a foamer.

Around mid July I started to notice that when pruning a few leaves from the vine,clear water would pour out, like the stalk was half full of water.I noticed that the base of the stalks were getting tan to brown in color. I think they were full of water for a while, and were starting to rot from the inside out.This seemed to occur on my first 2 sets of secondaries only. They were around 15 foot long each. All of my stumps were covered by the time the hoops came down.
Being a new grower,I did not think to much of it, since my fruit was having big gains.
This all started after my plant was terminated.

I wonder if letting the first two sets of secondaries keep on growing, would help the water retention ?

Maybe putting 20 or 30 fans around the patch would help in leaf transpiration on those humid days, LOL !!
That would be an exspensive electric bill !!!
Good post !

12/8/2010 9:20:11 AM

Bristol R.I. USA

I had a foamer this year. First one in my 2 years of growing. I drilled into the stump and used an eye dropper full of bleach in the smaller holes that I drilled. After that IO kept the area dry and applied some sulfer to the open wounds. After that the plant seemed to thrive. Who knows. I think it was the stress of the water being added to the plant.

12/8/2010 9:55:38 AM

huntsburg,ohio

i don't worry about foamers any more just catch them quick enough before they work down the main and if they do open main and keep dry.Jerry

12/8/2010 12:28:30 PM

Colorado

Ive had a few foaming stumps here in "no humidity -high desert" colorado. They get em in calif. also.Keeping water off the stump seems to help.

12/8/2010 12:39:26 PM

Rhode Island

soil conditions definately play the major roll regarding foamers . i know i have gone eight for eight over two years with regard to foaming stumps.

in my case the problem of controling excess moisture is hurt a lot because i had a lot of leaf and cow compost and to high nitrogen levels in that area of my patch.that area will rest for a few years --amen

i do like the idea of a roof type covering say 4ft x 4ft square over the base, laid out above the crown. im thinking a 2x3 frame (4ft square)with re-rod legs and some plastic over the frame so as to not restrict sunlight or stop the soil from breathing

pap

12/8/2010 2:46:03 PM

Ohio

Joez,
email Ron Wallace with your logic on the foamers, Its guys like you with the brilliant logical ways of thinking is who we need to find out what causes them and also stop these foamers from happening.

I have talked with Ron every single year for I know the last 5 years on these dreaded foamers, and In the past 3 or so years Ron has really buckled down in research sending samples to different labs to get all the information he could about them , he would also be asking all growers be them small time growers or big time growers like Quinn, Jerry, and alot of other top HH'S to send him all their information over the years, DETAILED information from start of plant to finish of pumpkin growing,on their foaming stumps.

for example, when foaming started,,soil condition,soil sample readings, temps, how old their pumpkin was when their foamer started , different fertilizer/pesticides used, what part of the country these foamers happen more frequently,, etc, etc, you name it he wanted to know everything in detail.

He was open for ANYONES idea's even if a grower thought it be it stupid or not( he received alot of those kind of stupid or not of my ideas thrown at him,,ha!), on growers ideas on why they think this happens, and what they think might stop foamers from happening.

I will say this again Joez, your the exact kind of people we need for this kind of thing,something that is hard to find a answer for to help figure out!

To be honest, I dont think anyone can tell you the real reason 'yet' why a foamer does happen and why it happens, their is alot od speculation still of some great ideas on why, but no one really knows the answer completly, because if we did know, them you wouldnt be seeing them still happening. I definatly think we are getting closer, and hope that day is almost here, because I really dread Mr Foamy coming to see me every year,,lol

12/9/2010 11:01:48 AM

Ohio

John I look at it just the opposite as you.
But ether of us could be right?,its hard to tell really what is 100% of the cause,lol,, maybe we will find out someday.

I think by cutting off secondaries would be better for helping to prevent a foamer, mainly the the first two secondaries that grow off and out near the stump.

That by eliminating these couple secondaries that come back straight to the stump area, it wouldn't be bringing all that water back through the vine, past the stump,to main and then to the pumpkin.

By leaving the secondaries, once all the roots suck up water from the secondaries, water then feeds back the secondary vine,past the main part of the stump and to the main and to pumpkin.

But at the same time this is water is coming back through the secondaries to the stump, you then also have roots sucking up water below the stump(BIG ROOTS) then feeding thew to main and towards pumpkin, but now you have double triple the water that where it all feeds back through that place in that stump at the same time causing wayyyyyy to much water in one space to pass through with out causing it to bust in the stump area, then causing the stump to fill up with fluid.

12/9/2010 12:08:29 PM