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Ohio

here's a thought I had, could be a stupid thought, but was wondering what you guys thought about this...

Since from my little experience using co2 on young seedling plants at the recommended dose, that it also has burned the tender young leaves for me , and watering it into the soil for starting seedlings to germinate ,, what are your ideas on this?,,,

I have heard this co2 works alot better in green house settings that will make a plant grow 30% and above normal, so what about we just spray the co2 inside our hoop house's away from our plants to bring the co2 levels up inside the 'closed' hoops at night or on a cool cloudy day ? ?
What about if you ''Don't'' spray the co2 directly on your plants or water it in, but just water it around the plant away from it some just enough on the ground and on the sides of your hoop house plastic. Do you think this could bring the Co2 levels up in your hoops then?... because your hoops will be closed to help trap the CO2 levels inside to help your plants, or do you still think it needs watered into the roots and applied foil spray or just wait untill the plants get bigger to use it?,,lol

Just a thought I had and was wondering what you guys thought.

5/22/2010 5:01:28 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Brooks, I have a funny story about a grower who did something like this. He treated his whole green house with Co2 and then went inside. Ooooppppsss no oxygen for breathing...luckily his friend was nearby and noticed him in trouble inside the house and pulled him out to safety. It just goes to show you that pumpkin growing can be a deadly contact sport...

5/22/2010 5:09:13 AM

Glosta

Brooks you can build a cheap co2 generator out of 2 liter plastic bottle, sugar, yeast and baking soda. it will produce co2 for 2-3 weeks. I did this in my hoops. plants looked healthy but I have no heat so cool nights slowed growth. also above my germination chamber I have a mini greenhouse with grow light, i put a co2 generator in there too plants take nicely too it and maximize the atificial light.

5/22/2010 5:25:24 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Seriously though lets chat about this some more. There appears to be a host of concerns. Let me try to help.

Co2 at least the RTI stuff is meant to be applied by foliar.

You must treat both surfaces of the leaves as the ratio of stomata is roughly 3 to 1. Meaning there are 3 times as many stomata on the bottom of the leaf. The number of stomata on a typical leaf and plant are listed below.

3 to 1 ratio bottom to top.
27,000 per sq. inch on the bottom, 9,000 on the top.
At 3 square feet per leaf.
144 x 3 = 432
432 x 36,000 = 15,552,000. Billion per leaf
300 x 15,555,200 = 4,665,600,000 Trillion per plant.

A little bit of added Co2 can really add up!

Co2 is meant to be parked on the leaf surface and then drawn in when the stomata opens. This parking increases the concentration of Co2 to above levels of normal background.

Inside the leaf it help to elevate photosynthesis levels and ultimately carbon exports into the xylem and the sinks.

Co2 allows the plant to breath more normally. In a nutshell it allows the plant to continue with normal respiration conditions for longer periods of time. This provides for a more stable xylem flow within the plant. Basically less environmental stress occurs.

The main benefit of this is during split event days the plant is thought to be more able to cope with soil and climatic moisture fluctuations.

Dosage recommendations that are listed on the package are ok for only non-sensitive portions of the plant that are well hardened off.

The GVGO has discovered that it can best be applied a day or two before an approaching warm front to mature fully developed plant leaves.

The best time to spray is in the late evening around dusk as the stomata begin to open en-mass.

Virgin plants I would treat starting out at lower dosages say 1/4 to 1/2 strength. then increasing with each application.

More is not better! This is actually worse as plants can be resistant to the effects of increased Co2 environments

5/22/2010 5:36:32 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Incorrect dosages can result in a white powdery film accumulation upon the leaf surface. If this is noticed decrease the dosage.

Co2 can be combined with other sprays. I used it often with Kelp, IBA and Phosphites...

Sorry I have one correction to my earlier comment...carbon exports are increased into the phloem and the sinks...not the xylem as I stated.

The phloem is concerned mainly with the transport of soluble organic material made during photosynthesis. This is called translocation.

The xylem is responsible for the transport of water and soluble mineral nutrients from the roots throughout the plant. It is also used to replace water lost during transpiration and photosynthesis.

Sorry for the biology lesson but it is important to understand why and how the effects of these modern treatments work within the plant.

Slowing down the water loss within the plant is the major benefit of RTI's Co2. It helps to maintain the plants ability to perform respiration at a comfortable and sustainable levels.

All of this helps the plant to remain constant and supply the sinks with a more balanced flow of nutrients to the sinks in both of the main rivers of the plant.

5/22/2010 5:54:52 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Co2 should be used with a suitable non ionic surfactant that spreads the spray droplet evenly over the leaf surface, helping it to adhere to the leaf, and increase penetration of Co2 within the spray droplet into the waxy cuticle that covers the leaf surface.

An added benefit of co2 is raised leaf pH maybe hindering powdery mildew growth...I don't have any data to support this just my own speculation...I would therefore avoid using it in combination with most pesticides to ensure proper LDL's are maintained.

Co2 can boost leaf levels of Calcium but this can be deceptive as leaf sample tissue tests may be come skewed thereby improperly reporting satisfactory levels of calcium uptake from the roots.

I hope this helps you folks a bit more....

5/22/2010 6:06:50 AM

Joliet, IL

thanks for the post brooks and thanks for the great advice russ. i haven't tried the co2 stuff yet. i am waiting until the plants get more established and then i will hit the mature leaves only 3 to 1 like russ says at twilight on days when day time temps are 80 or below. i never spray anything on plants that sat in really high temps all day and still too warm at twilight. and i will use a drop of dishwashing soap that is not anti bacterial as my surfactant. thanks to don young for the soap advice this past winter.

5/22/2010 8:20:19 AM

Massillon, Ohio

Russ, thanks so much for the great explanations. Facts presented in such a concise manner are much appreciated.

Brooks....thank YOU for beating on this subject till we got this good info. Now relax and get some sleep!!!

5/22/2010 9:33:36 AM

Colorado

Russ- what is LDL?

5/22/2010 10:27:12 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Lethal dose level.

5/22/2010 10:58:37 AM

San Diego, Ca.

Russ, thanks for giving us some great insight on the co2.
I have a couple questions.
The rate of stomata you listed above, is that for pumpkin leaves or is that a general number for any given type of leaf?
Would you consider spraytech oil a good choice for an adjuvant with the co2?

5/22/2010 11:25:23 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Yes this is an estimated stomata count based upon pumpkin leaves.

Spraytech I have used in the past, but to tell you the truth adjuvants are not my thing, Steve or John V. are much better at that stuff than me.

5/22/2010 11:43:45 AM

Las Cruces NM

First, I need to point out I'm not using RTI C02 (and for a few reasons) so my disclaimer is I'm not a user. But, that isn't to say I haven't thought about it (I have). Aren't the majority of stomata located on the underside of the leaf in dicots (pumpkins) with only a few on the top and stems? CO2 as an under canapy spray? Doesn't stomata close at night? Doesn't the stomata do a bit more then C02 exchange? Isn't Calcium localized (moves ever so slowly through plants)? Just some thoughts ...

5/22/2010 1:13:17 PM

canal winchester ohio

Every so often something gets posted on here that I know I'll need in the future so I copy & paste it in a word document.
This is one such post.
Russ, thanks for the info.
Paul

5/22/2010 2:24:29 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Yes the majority of the stomata are located on the underside of the leaf exactly as I stated above. 3 to 1 more on the bottom than top. Thanks for confirming this.

Ca that is up-taken by the roots moves in the Xylem and accumulates in the plant parts that transpire.

Ca in the Co2 will stay in the leaf area. You are correct on this. Ca does not usually move in the phloem. Testing leaves treated with Co2 therefore will have greater accumulations of Ca. This can lead a grower to infer a false level of Ca in the plant. Thus low fruit weights and BES are still problematic for plants that have Ca uptake issues.

Stomata usually open in the presence of light unless the plant is under evaporative stress. I like to spray when this occurs to both sides of the leaves. I spend way more time spraying the underside than the top.

I hope the helps clarify some points. This is pretty tough to explain completely on a message board.

5/22/2010 5:35:13 PM

Ohio

RUSS!!!!!! Exactly the information I was looking for!! Thanks for taking the time to explain all that, I really do appreciate it.

Now I can go to sleep,,lol,,, This thread will help alot of growers out Im sure of it.

Brooks

5/22/2010 8:07:19 PM

Frankfort Oh

Russ I have some of this stuff ,but im still leary about useing it,so how much to a gallon of water? and whats the real purpose of useing it?to improve plant growth ,is the right?just wondering if icould make up some lost time useing this on my watermelons?

5/27/2010 11:45:56 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Rob all of this info is posted at gvgo.ca. Including some newly discovered information about stomata and what RTI's C02 can help you achieve.

5/28/2010 11:32:56 PM

canal winchester ohio

I was on your site Russ looking for the new info but couldn't find it. I know it's there but I don't know where to look, could you help me please.
Paul

5/30/2010 3:18:34 PM