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Western PA

I was on the RTI website and noticed they don't even seem to be marketing the co2 product as a co2 increasing machine anymore. Under the product description it said nothing about increasing co2 levels which supposedly would increase photosynthesis by 3 fold.

From reading the product description, it appears it is only being marketed as a calcium supplement now, seems things have changed.

Hopefully there are growers or grower groups that are running testing on this product to determine it's effectiveness if any it has as a photosynthesis boosting product, Which seems pretty unlikely considering the makers of the product are not even marketing the co2 as that anymore.

Just a theory, but it looks like they might of pushed the co2 product to the side after growers warned of scorching plants and reducing mixing rates down so a 12oz bag would easily last a grower the whole season so they would not be able to sell nearly as much product as they initially wanted to, and focusing on there other products like the azos or companion. Remember these companies are out to make money. By giving good growers product to use, then the growers says they used that company's product when they grew that pumpkin. This is great marketing! This is also very deceiving to the people buying this product, either way the good grower was going to push out a big pumpkin and there is no way of telling how effective this new product really was.

This stuff is getting to the point you have to be a soil biologist scientist to know whats going on in the soil, Which I know just about all of us are not. Who is doing the testing of these products as a whole? Who really knows if all of these products can live or work together to benefit the plant. I am sure we will find out in a few years that a lot of us blew a lot of money on products that had little to no effect on overall fruit growth.

What do you think?

5/11/2010 3:18:25 PM

canal winchester ohio

It's May 11th, if growers are warning of scorching plants it may be because the plants may be to small & the growers are in too much of a hurry to use it & using a dose for a mature plant on a new seedling. I don't think a company would tell you to over use it to sell more product, if they kill your plant then in turn it will piss you off & in turn word of mouth would kill their buisness.
I don't remember Don Young or Phil Hunt tell of burning up their plants last year.
I think this fall will be a god time to debate the usefulness of it after many growers have used it the whole year.

5/11/2010 4:56:28 PM

canal winchester ohio

You got me wondering so I went to their website & found this.
http://www.reforest.com/category/articles/
scroll down to a article that says "A breath of fresh air".
And also read the second half of the first article, it's on CO2 as well.
Here's another link on their site with 17 articles about CO2 and it's photosynthesis effect from the product.
I hope you weren't basing your post on this link only
http://www.reforest.com/xtreme-gardening-co2/

5/11/2010 5:19:34 PM

canal winchester ohio

I forgot the link to the 17 articles, sorry.
http://www.reforest.com/desk/search/Calcium%20Carbonate%20foliar%20spray%20co2

5/11/2010 5:20:56 PM

Western NY

I don't plan on starting to use it on my plants until close to pollination time.

5/11/2010 5:22:12 PM

canal winchester ohio

Same here Andy, sorry about the last link. that was the MSDS link . here is the right one.
http://www.reforest.com/desk/search/CO2%20Fixing%20Foliar%20Spray

5/11/2010 5:27:04 PM

Mulino, Oregon

If you have an issue with a particular product, why not call RTI and ask them. Earlier posts talked about percieved problems with the Azos seed treatment, yet when I talked with Neil today, he knew nothing about it! They want us to talk to them about these products. If you have actually experienced failures or successes (perceived or real) please contact Neil Anderson at RTI and share them with him. This is how products and service improve.

I would also say that it is not the suppliers responsibility to make up for the fact that we aren't all soil biologists. It is up to each and everyone one of us to do our own homework to understand how and why we apply any products to our gardens. If you are doing it 'because everyone else is' or because 'someone told you to',don't complain to the supplier or about the supplier when you don't achieve the results that 'you' were expecting. You didn't 'do your homework'.

5/11/2010 5:35:29 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Pumpkinpicker, as a business owner that has very close ties with RTI, I can assure you that your theory about pushing CO2 to the side due to a few growers applying CO2 too strong and burning young plants could not be further from the truth. As most businesses in the Gardening/Landscaping/Agriculture industry, RTI is extremely busy during this time of year and might have focused on getting product to their customers and not so much on their website. They stand behind all of their products; However Companion is not one of their products.
The conspiracy theory that they are out to make money is partially true, as all businesses, the goal is to make a profit, but be assured, Neil Anderson would not sell a product that didnt work, remember one thing, the competitive growing community is a very small percentage of their business, that have been established within the forestry and landscaping industries long before Giant pumpkin growers tried their products.
I have to agree with Huffs and Jim Sherwood, if you have issues, contact them. I think that trying to make a company look bad is a very dangerous thing to do. If you question their integrity and feel this strong about it, go to the source and get the facts straight before you start a witch hunt.

5/11/2010 7:53:47 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Although this is not the first year that RTI's product has been used within the giant pumpkin growing community, it is the first year of widespread use. As giant pumpkin growers, we are generally eager to jump on a successful bandwagon and find that magic elixir which gives us an opportunity to grow monster pumpkins. Along with widespread use comes a few people who decide to tweak the product a bit and adapt it to uses other than that for which it was intended.

I don't recall Neil ever recommending that CO2 should be used on seedlings or when starting seeds. RTI will never base its business on the giant pumpkin growing community. Neil has been very kind to travel and help us adapt their product to our hobby and grow larger pumpkins.

5/11/2010 9:38:52 PM

Western PA

Thank you for your opinions. I think my wording came out in a way that I did not intend it to. My last comment saying: “I am sure we will find out in a few years that a lot of us blew a lot of money on products that had little to no effect on overall fruit growth.” This comment was not focused towards RTI or any of it affiliates. I am stating this comment in general to the combination of all the different products (all MFGs)we are using nowadays, it was not meant to be focused specifically on RTI products, I should of stated that clearer.


Tom and Tree Doctor, I am not out to bash anybody or any particular company or vendor of products. There is no witch hunt that I know of either. There is nothing wrong with questioning the effectiveness of a product or why this information is not detailed on the RTI website.

I have read plenty of information on this co2 product over the past few months, the problem might be I have read to much. I as a potential customer went to the RTI website, I go to the products page, then scroll down to the co2 fixing foliar spray, click on more info for that product, under more info, and under this product description it simply states it is a source of calcium to the plant. There was NO information on it’s ability to increase co2 levels and increase photosynthesis by 3 fold.
If this product can do that why wouldn’t it be listed under the product description? So I thought that was odd, so I went to the articles tab and scrolled down to the last article #5 “A breath of fresh air” which is a article that talks about how the co2 product is suppose to work. When you click on that article to read the full article, the rti site states “The page no longer exists or has been moved”. Just seemed a little odd to me that’s all. Also on the product label that I have seen it does not say anything about increasing co2 levels and photosynthesis by 3 fold.

5/12/2010 1:33:02 AM

Western PA

So after these 3 observations it appeared as if the company was distancing itself from the initial claims of increased co2 levels and photosynthesis by 3 fold, and just from reading the product description on the rti site you would think that they are now marketing it as a calcium supplement.

Also, if look at the detailed the detailed info under just about all of the xtreme gardening products they are pretty detailed on what the product does, just not the co2 foliar.

Just a valid concern which is not any underground conspiracy.

Huff, thanks for the info you have list, although under this link: http://www.reforest.com/desk/search/Calcium%20Carbonate%20foliar%20spray%20co2 which is the one you provided with 17 articles on co2 foliar, I did not see one of them titled anything that would indicate that they were talking about the co3 foliar product.

Hopefully this clears up my intent for this posting of not bashing a particular company, but the concern of a product and what others opinion were on this.

5/12/2010 1:33:12 AM

Western PA

After all this is a open forum, and I wanted to hear what others thought about this particular product.

5/12/2010 1:37:45 AM

Ontario, Canada.

OK then here is what I have to say. I still am really not sure were you are going with this topic? Have you spoken directly with folks who have tried it on Pumpkins? I would reiterate Jim's comment to call them and talk about your concerns. Heaven knows that the product helped Phil & Jane, Ron and also Don Young and for that matter my own 410" fruit grown from July 20th on a 1/4 of a main vine that had snapped in nearly two a couple of nodes from the pumpkin. There are also all those BP's of several others in the GVGO test group in the craziest summer in modern growing history.

Bottom line is if you don't understand a product that the rest of the community is using rather well than you will be left behind in the competition. You must do your own due-diligence. If you still dispute this simply don't use it at your own peril.

Not only do I use it but I have seen the positive effects on warm hot dry days. It can make a difference and help you increase daily weight gains. The key is in the Co2's ability to let the plant continue with normal respiration on hot dry days. All this helps to extend the growth curve and ultimately delays senescence and the release of ethylene for a while as the plant continues to churn out weight gains.

You'll also need to brush up on your plant biology if you want to beat the best this bunch...LOL

5/12/2010 6:32:22 AM

Nebraska

Pumpkin picker I think after huffs posted that lin .k he corrected himself saying that was the wrong one and to use the other one.

5/12/2010 6:53:38 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Pumpkin Picker, I must apologize that my post came across stronger than I intended. I spoke with the good folks at RTI and they explained to me that the registration laws in California being what they are; they had to "remove the information about CO2 promoting photosynthesis on the website because of registration issues in California." Obviously more stringent than other states they have to word labels and websites very carefully. RTI follows the laws and plays by the rules, unlike other companies; they will not make claims that cannot be substantiated.
There are plenty of very successful growers that have used CO2; some of these growers grew some of the biggest fruit ever grown.
One of the biggest hurdles I find is when growers decide that they want to use more than the recommended rate on any product, because we all know if 1 tablespoon per gallon of water is good, 3 or 4 tablespoons has to be "more good", these same growers then experience negative reactions and it becomes the responsibility of the manufacturer or the retailer that sold them product that didn’t work or ruined their season....
I can recall 4 or 5 yrs ago, a grower that complained about the price of a fertilizing program, $300, but went on to buy every high dollar seed at auctions and bought this fert program that required you to spray one product every day, every day a different part of the program, this grower couldn’t be bothered with that and decided to dump it all in a 55 gallon drum and mix it all up and drench at will. At the end of the season he had a few 200 or so lb fruit and went on to bash the fertilizer program. In the competitive growing world it is too easy to cause a stampede and draw up unfounded conclusions, there will always be a few growers who don’t achieve the desired effect from a product; it’s the law of averages.

5/12/2010 7:57:10 AM

Sophia WV

Alot of times we as growers think we have the magic tonic and we tend to go overboard with its useage.I am using Azos and C02 from RTI it is meant to be used as directed and at later stages of plant growth.This year I have abandoned the glug glug method of measureing and am going strictly by the directions.I didnt this 2 years ago and got 1035 and 1071.So in closeing use products wisely and at their recommended times and recommended doses.

5/12/2010 8:00:10 AM

Rhode Island

ron and i have done sample testing of a lot of rti products over the last few years. mico being the first in 2006 when ron had the world record.

i would not be afraid to use any of neils rti products. in fact we are testing a couple new products for then again this year.

last year was a farce weather wise here in rhode island. cold and rainy in may and june, july was not much better.
august was good and coupled with the rti products and our soil drenches ,etc, we still had some fantastic results.

5/12/2010 8:26:03 AM

Western PA

Thank you for your responses and information.

Tom, The information you just stated in the first part of your recent post was exactly what I was looking to find out! Thank you. My concern simply was at one time the product was being marketed as this Co2 increasing product that could increase photosynthesis by 3 fold, but now when you go the the mfg. website it did not mention that. So ANY customer that does there research on products, you would think would find this a bit concerning and one could assume that this product could not do what the mfg. had described earlier since it is not labeled that way anymore. Thank you.

Kahuna, I appreciate the information you provided on this product. Also just to let you know, I am not out to beat the best of the bunch in plant biology trivia.
I don't believe I ever made that claim... lol

I am amazed at the criticism for questioning a product, If Ford advertised and stated the fact that there engines could run 200,000+ miles with no vehicle maintenance then a couple months later, they no longer made these claims. being one of the customers that bought that truck during those claims that are not being made now. Wouldn't you be a bit concerned and look for information and the reasoning behind it?

5/12/2010 9:52:38 AM

Midwest

Pumpkin Picker
Nothing is wrong with what you said except that it makes others feel that RTI was back-pedaling because someone n the company found out that it doesn't really work. Which, is not the case here.

5/12/2010 11:03:29 AM

canal winchester ohio

That's the thing that upset me as well christrules. I spoke with Neil Anderson at our seminar & trust me when I say I got the impression he wasn't going to get rich off of us. Forestry is his moneymaker, We probably aren't 3% of his buisness. And he seemed very sincere in his interest to help us grow larger pumpkins.
.Paul

5/12/2010 1:23:57 PM

Long Island,New York

I think you guys should be spanked for jumping on Pumpkin Picker. He questioned a product in an open discussion forum looking for opinions and you trashed him for questioning and seeking info results and opinions. Shame on you.

5/12/2010 6:24:02 PM

canal winchester ohio

Fine G, but can I be first...LOL

5/12/2010 7:27:27 PM

Ohio

I have questioned alot of products on here also and hope you guys dont feel the same way towards me, because my intentions was not to down some one's business but to get other growers opinions on a product.

I really dont see a problem with this post to tell you the truth, but rather a very good source of new information I have just learned from Tom's post that I had no idea about.
I know alot of you guys are friends with Neil, and he is no doubt a great guy, but why would Picker have to ask him questions in private for?
Because if there is nothing to hide about this product, then there should be nothing to worry about why one should ask a question like this in private instead of out in the open.

I truley believe 100% RTI has nothing to hide from anyone,nor are they steering anyone in a diffrent direction in the least bit. Lets just let Picker get some opinions already,,lol

5/12/2010 9:22:38 PM

Nebraska

I think calling the company would be the first thing to always do. If that was done all those assumptions wouldn't have been made. When I read that first post I don't see questions being asked as much as I see assumptions being made.

5/12/2010 10:27:41 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

I saw no problem with this post, except for how upset everyone else got in their replies. At least in the end he got more helpful information on CO2 foliar than I got when I asked about how I might treat my dandylions without harming the patch. But he did paid for it in the form of a royal beating though.

5/13/2010 1:43:13 PM

Western PA

Hey Guys, Thanks for your recent comments!

I was getting eaten alive in here before you guys showed up!!
It was like being in a pool of piranhas.

Now we all know why the rti website reads the way it does.

5/13/2010 5:21:03 PM

Salinas, CA

Hi everyone!
I've been following this post, and it's a great read! So many posts so quickly! I just wanted you all to know that Tom is right. We had some issues with label registration in certain states, mainly California, and so a lot of information has been removed from our website. But pumpkin picker is right to question. We didn't provide any reasoning on our website for why we removed the information. And as Tree Doctor said, give us a call. We're very happy to talk soil biology any time! Or email us too.

Best of luck to all of you this season!
Warmly,
Alan

5/14/2010 12:05:58 AM