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Western PA

What are your opinions on the C02 foliar?

Has anybody read or know of any independent studies on this stuff?

Form the way it is described it just seems to good to be true.

This stuff must have a pretty darn high markup on it considering it says on the lithovit website that it is calcium carbonate from natural limestone deposits. (It did not mention of anything else being added) last time I check you could pick up a 50 pound bag of lime for like 5 bucks a 12 ounce bag of C02 foliar cost like 30 to 35 bucks. Either it costs a ton of money to mill down limestone to the nano size it needs to work or these guys are pulling in some serious cash.

$2010 worth of C02 foliar in one 50lb bag of lime.

Thank you for your input.

2/11/2010 5:34:49 PM

Western NY

ask again in 8 months, lol

2/11/2010 6:54:23 PM

Sacramento, Ca

No offense but I think some people woiuld spin around three times, stand on their head and bark like a dog if they thought it would get them a bigger pumpkin. I am probably wrong but it sounds like snake oil to me.

2/11/2010 8:22:59 PM

Colorado

helped grow 1678 Hunt, 1658 Young, 1622 Young, 1596 Wallace... potentially the best thing I'm going to spend money on this year, in my opinion.

2/11/2010 8:35:21 PM

ExtremeVegetables.com

Limestone IS calcium carbonate, it is NOT pure calcium carbonate. Most limestones contain other materials such as magnesium carbonate and silica.
There are two methods of recovering calcium carbonate from lime stone.
1 Grinding, crushing , wet milling and screening, particle size fractionation. The calcium carbonate so obtained is normally delivered to the consumer (such as paper mills for paper coating, wet end filler for the production of neutral or alkaline sized papers) in slurry form. The solids content of the slurry is high, near to 65 - 70%, various deflocculants are used to maintain a very low viscosity even with the high solids.

2. The limestone is fired in a furnace to convert the calcium carbonate to calcium oxide. The CaO is delivered to the customer as a bulk powder where it is made into a Ca(OH)2 slurry with water. Carbon dioxide is then added to the slurry to reform Calcium Carbonate, This latter process yields a carbomate with controlled characteristics such as particle size and particle size distribution. This method is used for calcium carbonate used in the pharmaceutical industry as a vey pure carbonate is obtained.

2/11/2010 8:41:49 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

I resemble that MG.

2/11/2010 10:50:01 PM

Picton,ON ([email protected])

The addition of Lithovit to the program was one of the main changes I made last year. Personal best went from 1170 to 1339 and a World Record Squash......will I use it again...hmmm...yup!

2/11/2010 11:17:36 PM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

We'll likely use it again this year. ;o)

Jane & Phil

2/12/2010 7:38:22 AM

Gays Mills, Wisconsin

was it used on the 1725 or the 1689?

2/12/2010 7:49:53 AM

Glosta

Lithovit is made by forcing calcium carbonate through opposing grinding rotors spinning at extremely high speeds. The impact of the particles hiting the rotors and each other causes them to break down into nano size particles. This nano particle is easily absorbed into the stomata obviously because of it's size. A machine that can produce nano particles is not cheap, so hence the cost, But is 35 or 70 dollars a season too much to ask for to improve your chances. I think not,I will use it this year.

2/12/2010 8:14:45 AM

Glosta

Also the optimal level of CO2 saturation for plant growth is .1%, atmospheric levels of co2 are ~.04%, lithovit raises this level in the plants to ~.06% a 20% increase in co2 availabilty. and it is directly available to the plants as it is confined in the stomata. And lithovit helps keep the stomata closed which helps reduce the loss of water. So more food and water for the plants, sounds like a good investment to me so far.

2/12/2010 8:22:51 AM

Pembroke, New Hampshire

A personal observation of increased pumpkin size isn't science...there are a multitude of reasons for increasing sizes, not the least of which is improving genetics. I'm very skeptical about the science behind this. I'm not so sure that atmopheric CO2 levels are a limiting factor in pumpkin size since there's a virtulally endless supply available to the plant. The small amount of CO2 supplied by this method is minimal at best. Even at a "nano" size, very little actually enters the plant through the stoma- not enough to make a dent in the size. No body knows if any of it is converted to CO2 that is effectively used by the plant. I'll wait for the radioactive tracer studies before I believe it......
Having said that, lots of the stuff we do isn't proven to make a difference, but it's fun to speculate. I admit, if the heavy hitters were using this product regularly and growing monsters and swore by it, I'd probably use it too. science or no science.

2/12/2010 8:48:01 AM

Team Munson

Great question and I have my questions also, I would say the best way to get the answers is to talk to the growers who used it and the man that makes it.

You can do both in Niagara on 3/12-14/2010 where the growers who used it will be available for discussion privately & in open group discussion. Neil Anderson from RTI industries makers of the product will also be there speaking on this hot topic & be available for open questioning.

Don't miss this great opportunity to find out all the answers to your questions and sign up for the 2010 Niagara growers convention.

Dave

2/12/2010 9:04:58 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Maybe you're just making your soil pH a little better, and that helped improve your weights?

My water in this part of the country is loaded with calcium carbonate. Maybe I should bottle the stuff and start selling it?

2/12/2010 12:12:48 PM

Parker, Co

neil anderson from RTI will also be a the california growers meeting march 6th. We are planning on using it. and I may even stand on my head if it helps! cindi

2/12/2010 1:32:11 PM

Going from 0.04% to 0.06% is an increase of 50%, not 20%.

You are suggesting that the existing concentration is only 40% of ideal, and use of the product would raise the available concentration to 60% of the ideal, representing an increase of 20 percentage points. However, a percentage is ratio, not a difference, and therefore, mathematically, the percentage in increased CO2 availability is 50% (equivalent, in this case, to 20 percentage points).

-the nerd police

2/12/2010 2:45:46 PM

Western PA

Thanks to everyone for there opinions and input on this.

A few more questions and comments I have on this product.

I have read that it only needs to be applied a few times a season. So is the co2 foliar suppose to be able to raise C02 levels for weeks at a time before the next application??? or does it just give the plant a quick shot of c02 adrenaline.

I have also read that it either reduces the size of the stoma or partly keeps the stoma closed which helps the plant conserve more water. It would seem if that would be the case that could effect foliar feeding, at what degree would it effect the efficiency of foliar feeding?

2/12/2010 5:10:01 PM

Adams County

Neil was at the SOGPG seminar. I'm using it..

2/12/2010 8:26:53 PM

Las Cruces NM

Once upon a time there was a product called Harpin protein produced from disease bacteria which acted like a vaccine inducing a systemic self defense response and increased growth hormone production. People swore by it including me. Then the University studies came out stating no effect or inconclusive results. The patent holder, Eden bioscience closed It’s doors. There is more at http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/index.html for all the snake oil opponents. But for the rest, my only question is, with all the stuff we’re using on our plants, how do we really know what worked and what didn’t? Does that really even matter? Time toponder ... l8ters

2/12/2010 8:55:38 PM

eastern Ontario

From the "1678 Hunt 09" and other great AGs mentioned above and the comments to date,the only thing that is clear to me is that the CO2 foliar "does no harm".
My view has always been---if it does no harm but it might work---then why not give it a try?

2/13/2010 8:58:47 AM

Hanover,Ontario,Canada

I will be giving it a try this year but I have two observations. One the green house industry has been a long time user of CO2. Secondly I have started this spring raising my own worm compost for worm castings for my compost tea as castings are scarce to start with. Gerry from the worm factory here in Ontario gave me some calcium Carbonate to make a slurry to compensate the high acidity in fresh fruit going into our household compost for the worm feed. So calcium carbonate becomes a very important element in our mix for bigger pumpkins. I have also used a six inch candle in sand in a cut off plastic jug to heat my small green houses to protect the plants from over night frosts. The candles will burn for 8 - 10 hours and produce carbon dioxide as well. Use less hydro that way. Just some thoughts !!!!! Hanover Pumpkin King

2/13/2010 10:00:31 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Photosynthesis begins when stomata, on the undersides of leaves, are activated by light and begin breathing in carbon dioxide (CO2) from the air. This CO2 is broken down into carbon (C) and oxygen (O). Some of the O is used for other plants processes, but most is expelled back into the air. The C is combined with water to form sugar molecules, which are then converted into carbohydrates. These carbohydrates (starches) combine with nutrients, such as nitrogen, to produce new plant tissues (Bigger & Thicker pumpkins). CO2 is vital to plant growth and development, and yet is often the most overlooked element in gardening. It is the plants most basic function.

Therein lies the answer. By boosting the nominal supply of CO2 photosynthesis is increased. You simply can not dispute that fact! If you accept this finding which by the way is very well documented the results are bigger and better sinks for all plants.

Successful growers can now implement new foliar methods to increase CO2 concentrations in their leaves. The typical outdoor air we breathe contains just 0.03 - 0.045% (300 - 450 ppm) CO2. As Brian correctly states research demonstrates that optimum growth and production for most plants occurs between 1000 - 1500 ppm CO2. Several studies suggest that optimum CO2 levels can boost plant metabolism, growth and yield by 25 - 60%.

2/14/2010 6:31:36 PM

Ontario, Canada.

The questioning may continue well into the coming season. However I do not understand the argument that this great new product would not help to increase a fruits size and weight. It clearly increases plant availability of CO2. Therefore a simple 10% yield increase amounts to 150 pounds extra on a 1500 pound fruit.

This also does not take into account the benefits of increased Xylem flow. Plants are able to function more normally for longer time periods in extreme hot & dry weather conditions. Treated plant leaves tend to transpire more slowly. Understand the cause of BES and it is easy to observe another major benefit of CO2.

Referring to this as just another Lime product requires more due-diligence. Healthy skepticism is fine but the debate in my humble opinion is over.

2/14/2010 6:31:42 PM

Pembroke, New Hampshire

The debate is FAR from over. This science is akin to spraying a human all over ther body with H2O2 and saying that because we need O2, it will be beneficial.
I'd love to see and review the scientific papers on this topic...double blinded and controlled.
Is CO2 supply the rate limiting factor in photosynthesis? If so, there should be studies showing increased growth of fruit in a controlled CO2 environment. If anyone has the references, nows the time to post them. Even if it is a rate limiting step, no one has shown that with these sprays, CO2 levels around the plant are increased to any substantial degree. Maybe we would be better off with a continuous low flow of CO2 gas around the plant...say a block of dry ice in the patch, but far enough from the plant to prevent cold damage.
I'm still not convinced that these sprays add any significant CO2 to the plant. Again, I'd still use it if I thought my yeilds would go up, proof or not.

2/17/2010 6:34:17 PM

Anchorage, Alaska

cndadoc, I'm with you completely. We beat this horse in a previous thread, and we are stock until someone comes up with quantitative evidence.

My vote is still for the most photosynthetic benefit from co2(gas), but I agree that lime could be beneficial as a foliar spray in other ways.

2/17/2010 10:41:21 PM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

I can't say FOR SURE that the product CO2 (formally Lithovit) was the reason for our success, but with the results we had & the results from the others that used it, it sure didn't hurt. We'll use it again.

This reminds me about the Mycorrhizal fungi discussion a few years back. Many growers thought it wasn't worth wasting money on it. Now it plays a big role in growing the large fruits we see today.

We definately need to explore this further. We'll know more in the fall with the amount of growers using it this season.

2/18/2010 7:54:19 AM

United States

I have your results and why & How Lithovit CO2 Calcium & more works.
Lithovit on YouTube
usalithovit.com

9/10/2010 4:43:35 PM