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Bulgaria

Has anyone (aside from Don Young) had the courage :-) to try the so called 'sun looking leaves' pruning technique, described here:
http://seedswap.freehostia.com/sll-pruning.html

12/23/2009 2:14:54 PM

Berlin,mi.([email protected])

very interesting. i might give it a try.

12/23/2009 5:18:40 PM

Nebraska

I don't want to sound stupid but doesn't the bottom
of the leaves produce energy when hit by the sun. I'm still new at this and I want to learn all I can.

12/23/2009 5:31:38 PM

Bulgaria

STEVE Z,
It's pretty old thing, check here:
http://bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=236187
Two seasons later decided to collect some data.

the cable guy,
That is right (that part absorb energy too), though less efficient than the top

12/23/2009 5:55:30 PM

Ohio

Hristo, not sure I fully understand why you would want to prune the leaves even though they still are absorbing energy to feed your plant and fruit. The sun doesnt have to beat directly down on the leaves for them to still absorb light, and even if its just a little bit of light they are getting wouldnt it be better to leave them then removing the leaves, leaving you nothing at all?

12/23/2009 6:28:44 PM

Bulgaria

Brooks,
It would be much easier to answer you if you know Bulgarian :-) But I will try to add something more, or to use different examples than those I already used.

First of all this is still an experiment.
So the theory is: Yes, we do reduce the total number of the leaves by nearly 50% (less than 50%, because the leaves on the main vine are not pruned), but there will be more room for the rest leaves to grow bigger (especially their leaf blades which are the main "working horse"), so the total leaf blade area will stay nearly same (here is the proof: http://bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=114588 - I do not see many empty spaces). So, were is the benefit when we not only didn't increase the leaf area, but even decrease it a bit? It's in their efficiency of work. They look to south so they receive much more direct light than the north looking leaves. And this is especially beneficial during early and late season, when the sun is low above the horizon. It's easy - next year, observe how many direct light receive the south looking and the north looking ones.

To be clear - I do not expect those (yet hypothetical) benefit to be huge. But even if the pruned plant works lets say 5% better than the non pruned, I call this benefit... small, but still benefit.

What about the southern growers - it's well known that above some level of light intensity (and high temps) the photosynthesis stops and further increasing the light starts to harm the plant. At these periods the north looking leaves may work even better than the south looking ones. Some more adventurous grower may decide to prune the south looking ones instead the north ones. Or to plant east-west, instead north-south. But I still think shading is best.

Continues...

12/23/2009 8:36:32 PM

Bulgaria

The practice:
I grow all my plants that way, hence I can't compare. So the only one plant I know grown by someone else is Don Young's 1483 Werner plant. It produced 1333 Young. I thought it's significantly smaller than some of the others, maybe this is result of that pruning?! But, then I saw the info on aggc.org, quote "great plant would of done alot more if had more sun tree intreferred with sunlight from mid summer on". And then I saw that this is the largest progeny among 6 more 1483 Werner pants grown. Not bad, but I can't make conclusions based on only one pumpkin.

Despite I'm member here lots of years, I very rarely post, hence no one knows me well, so do not trust me. Just ask yourself does it sounds logical to you? If yes - try it, if not - don't. And after few years practice we will know more.

12/23/2009 8:36:41 PM

Ohio

oh ok Hristo, I get it now, now I understand, I wasnt reading the post all the way through. I do notice a diffrence in my leaf size and growth when the sun is hitting them from diffrent directions, not a whole lot but there is a diffrence.

But it sure cant hurt to try new things, if you have some patch space what do you have to lose.

12/23/2009 8:54:26 PM

Ohio

And I will also add, on some of my plants where I cant grow them into a postion to where the sun rises, I will notice the secondary growth on one side of the main vine grows out like wild fire, while the other side not facing the sun will be growing extremely slow and way behind to the secondaries that face the sun the most.

12/23/2009 9:01:53 PM

Bulgaria

OK, if you give it a try, do not forget to share the results :-)...
I'm going to sleep it's 4 am here

12/23/2009 9:15:37 PM

British Columbia, Canada

Diden't Don Young grow his 1333 pounder using that technique?

12/23/2009 9:52:51 PM

British Columbia, Canada

I should've read your post first, Hristo...

12/23/2009 9:56:55 PM

Joliet, IL

if the main goes north-south, which means the secondary leaves will angle either north or south, couldn't you just plant with the main running east-west? the only leaves then losing this benefit of more direct august sun are on the south side of the main, and usually by that point are past there prime of high productivity and are showing signs of age. i know that switching the mains' direction to east west does not have the same overall exact effect as the north side leaves catching the sun more directly in late august from the angle of the sun hitting the angle of the tilted leaves better with your approach. but if you choose to leave all your secondary leaves on, then the east west positioning might provide better production based on this theory.

i like the idea of keeping spacing between secondaries wide enough to allow for bigger and lower reaching leaves for both air flow and they hold up better in the wind then tall crowded leaves and you are maximizing output and minimizing wasted energy. i don't prune every other one, but about every 4th if needed. but taking away 50 percent of my secondary leaves sounds risky. but i like the thought involved and would love to see the results of those with enough plants to experiment on one of them. maybe less leaves will produce more than we think and will produce even bigger pumpkins. you never know with these things and i applaud the out of the box thinking.

one last thought. wouldn't it be better also than to plant the plants one a slight pitch with the north end higher than the south end to increase this late season angle of the suns maiximum effeciency overall?

12/23/2009 11:45:12 PM

Rhode Island

its always great to experiment. we are forever trying to do something that will give us competition growers a slight edge over the competition.
personally i believe that
1. i like to plant ( whenever possible ) so the main vine runs due south. our biggest pumpkins have a;lways come from plants heading in this direction.
2. we only prune third stage growth and occasionally a secondary vine or two if its in the way of the growing fruit. larger leaves will develop if you prune but they also fall over easier during a wind storm if they get to big and bulky.
3. we grow 12 ft minimum on the side vines
4. we set fruit only after growing a minimum 10-12 ft on main.
5. we terminate main after choosen pumpkin and grow a pitchfork off the last set of sides before the fruit.one less problem with stem and/or vine stress.

a quick observation. may or may not mean anything?
in 2009 rons bases were kept relatively dry while i watered mine. i had all four bases foam up. ron only had one minor foamer out of eight. ????????????????????

12/24/2009 8:21:20 AM

Section, AL

would you elaborate on " pitchfork off the last set of sides" , thanks

12/24/2009 9:13:15 AM

Bulgaria

shazzy,
North-South or East-West? Big topic! My point of view why North-South + SLL pruning is better than East-West without pruning - as you said that way half of the leaves will look east, and other half to west. That way half of the leaves will be shaded during early day, and the other half during late day. When plant are SLL pruned there is no shading from sunrise to sunset. And this is the "slight edge" Pap mentions. This "slight edge" is not so important for non-competitive growers (like me), but for the growers with the right climate, soil, seed, skills, could be the difference between 1st and 2 nd place.

Yes, "you never know with these things" until more data is available.

"slight pitch" That will be very good, if the grower has such patch (mine is just opposite - inclined to north).

pap,
1. - This answers shazzy's question too
2. - Actually it turned out that the leaves on my pruned plant doesn't suffer from wind more than when I do not prune. As shazzy mentioned the leaves become larger, but their stems become shorter and thicker. My garden is on top of hill, there are only few trees around, and it's quite windy, so thsi is not as big problem as I initially thought too. But when pruning that way the vines should be buried (good example http://bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=114750 )
...
5. Yes pitchfork is not the best combo for SLL, but big part of the plant is still suitable for SLL pruning

"foam" - :-) sorry I can't understand what you mean

CharlesCurtis,
Pap means like this: http://bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=110287 you leave tertiary vines on last two secondaries

12/24/2009 10:57:59 AM