From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Ontario, Canada.

This issue continues to give me problems. Growing a 410" fruit that doesn't weigh nearly close to chart has me concerned if I can ever get the problem under control.

Despite having more than adequate PPM of Ca uptake is always a challenge for my plants. It never is really talked about here at BP but I believe it to be a HUGE, Huge hidden problem for a lot of growers. Resulting problems for growers include low fruit weights and generally poor growth rates as calcium becomes increasingly tied up in insoluble compounds.

Bicarbonate is often overlooked in irrigation water analysis. The presence of high levels of bicarbonates will precipitate with calcium when the soils dry. The result is an increase of sodium relative to the calcium causing poor root growth and slowed uptake of Ca into the plant.

Elevated bicarbonate levels in the water may also result in an unattractive white calcium carbonate deposit on irrigation equipment and sprinkler heads.

Bicarbonate levels greater than 100 ppm are sufficient to cause concern. Concentrations of bicarbonates greater than 200 ppm may pose a severe potential hazard. Since bicarbonate reacts with calcium to form calcium carbonate and render the calcium unavailable in higher pH soils.

I am looking for a good cost effective acid injection system to modify my irrigation water? Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

12/18/2009 5:39:30 AM

South East

http://www.spraygro.com.au/ph_acidifier.asp

12/18/2009 8:18:48 AM

Picton,ON ([email protected])

Russ

Citric acid may be the cheapest acidifier. It is available in 50 lb bags (powder). Would need to be added to a holding tank or slurried and added through a dose a tron.

12/18/2009 8:36:17 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

My patch and my water are bicarbonate city. My pH is around 7.9, which high levels of calcium carbonate in my soil. The irrigation water is also high.

My last two years, my fruit have weighed around 15% above the chart.

I think, not sure though, that any attempt to neutralize the extreme amounts of bicarbonate will result in a pile of salt. One time I put my soil in a jar and put vinegar in it. They say if you see bubbles, you have bicarbonate. Mine looked like a kids volcano experiment.

12/18/2009 3:49:29 PM

Mn

Is this a problem with water that is really high in Ph or can it be found in other water supplies.. We have a well and the surrounding geology is mostly limestone and sand stone.

12/18/2009 7:24:53 PM

[email protected]

Russ, is the irrigation water levels of the bicarbs consistent, Is it at the same levels from spring until fall. Because if it isn't you have another problem, If your irrigation water is natural, ie rivers, or lakes, the levels will change with every rain, and it will also change as the temps go up and down, I would guess your problem could be caused by the fluctuations.
Our PH levels out here and actually all along the Rockies, is high, We're at 7.8 as Cliff's is in Idaho and I'm pretty sure the PH in Colorado is the same,
We can all grow over the chats, ie Biz this year at 12% heavy and over 1200 pounds, Most of our water out here is glacial, or snow melt, and is consistent. And we don't get nearly the rain to saturate our levels as you do. Our bicarb rations are in the high 100's per million, but again consistent, Our plants adapt to it from the start, and since it don't change, the growth isn't affected.
Does that make any sense
Eddy

12/18/2009 7:48:40 PM

Russ, I looked at your weights from the past few years.

What explaination, if any, do you have for most of the fruit going over the chart in '07?

I think there is more involved here with other things than the unscientific guesses about the amount of Ca required for over the chart fruit. Of course maybe you have done fruit tissue tests at the end of the season for a few years now. That would constitute some basis for your assumptions.

12/18/2009 11:15:42 PM

Ontario, Canada.

I bought some Phosphoric acid in Florida in Jan 2008 while on Vacation with Phil and Jane Hunt. I has sat on my self since.

My water is around 8.4 I have tested it several times. Lots of white deposits form on drip hoses and and iirrigation heads.

12/19/2009 3:56:05 AM

Ohio

Russ,
Todd skinner was trying to address (i think)the same concerns as you, or similar and bought a very special type filter (that wasn't cheap) for trying to address a problem with his water last year that I think also had to do with salts and PH,, but just not exactly sure if its the same exact problem as you are having and not sure if he used the filter all year long or not because he had one go very light for him this year that was way over the 420 ott marks (his 1333 lber that measured in the 1600's). But then again he had one go over 210 lbs heavy in the same patch.
But email Todd to get more details, he might be able to give you a few ideas cause its one of the main things he worked hard on last year that he thought was giving him alot of problems.

12/19/2009 4:02:18 AM

Ohio

Now that Im thinking about it, he did set a new persoanl best 2 times this year also so maybe something is half way working for him, and maybe he hasnt gotten all the bugs out yet . If you want I can also call him.

12/19/2009 4:05:58 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Dan, I looked back into my 2007 records and found some interesting notes that I had forgotten about.

That summer I was modifying my irrigation water with aluminum sulfate(not recommended). I did this a few times as an experiment during the summer on my patches. I would throw in some Al sulfate into a 5 gallon bucket and mix it with water, Calcimax and epsom salts too. The whole concoction was applied through a Dosatron by overhead and or drip automatically at 4am a few times that summer.

Geeze I never gave it a thought that it truly may have worked. In a very dumb way looking back upon it I may have stumbled upon a solution.

Tissue tests this year confirmed there is an extreme uptake problem of Ca in my patches. Last year (08) this was not the case. Tissue samples were fine but I believe now that my samples were conducted too early in the summer for the problem to show up. I confidently went ahead without irrigation modifications and obliviously headed out the scale and was disappointed large come Oct. 2008.

I never gave water pH a fair shake at all since the winter of 2008. I suppose that I was confident that annual applications of sulfur and gypsum would cure the problem. Not realizing that as each summer progressed I was tying up calcium more and more with each irrigation event.

12/19/2009 4:27:26 AM

Ontario, Canada.

I can remember a discussion with a professor of mine about water pH in 2007 and the first thing he asked me about was bicarbonates. All I was worried about went away in his statement saying that I should be OK with the water pH. I never clicked upon his bicarbonate comments.

Brooks thanks, you get up way too early LOL.

12/19/2009 4:34:49 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Eddies comment about seasonal fluctuations are very valid. The problem is not so pronounce in the spring due to lower irrigation requirements and the past two years have seen tremendous early summer rainfalls that may be reducing the bicarbonate problems somewhat.

This summer I did not irrigate at all with calcium preferring instead to do everything by foliar. This was based in part upon my belief that uptake was not a problem. I even backed way off on drenches too...that was a Big Mistake looking back on it now.

There are a couple of other items to add to the story but irregardless of what anyone every tells you Calcium applied to the leaves does not move from them.

12/19/2009 4:48:50 AM

Joliet, IL

russ, i also have higher ph in my city water, but not as high as yours. about 7.6. that got me looking into what you are talking about and i found some good reads out there. i do not think my biocarbonate levels are bad here since no formation of cal. carbonate on my heads. i too use sulfur and gypsum evey year. i am trying calcite calcium from greensmiths besides gypsum again this year as a slower longer distrubuting calcium source.

as far as those bicarbonates, here are a good read i found while poking around on the net.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ss165
http://www.imok.ufl.edu/liv/groups/cultural/irrigate/acidify.htm

12/19/2009 8:50:18 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Jeff that second link really nails the down the issue and the corrective action. Now all I need is an effective acid injector.

12/19/2009 10:27:49 AM

Joliet, IL

http://www.dosatronusa.com/markets-served/horticulture/recommended-injectors.aspx

12/19/2009 1:19:27 PM

[email protected]

Russ,

I'm not convinced that using chelated forms of calcium (as a targeted soil drench) wouldn't correct your situation. Have you done any tissue testing (in season) to validate your hypothesis?

12/19/2009 5:40:27 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Steve, from what I've come to understand you are correct the problem can be mitigated somewhat short term by calcium drenches. However I am now well beyond A & L labs upper reporting threshold for calcium ppm soil levels.

Tissue samples have confirmed the problem during this past growing season.

12/20/2009 9:22:42 AM

Bloomington, IN

By any chance is rain water collection an option at your patch?

12/20/2009 1:36:18 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Rain water collection is not really a good option for my patch situation but it has been considered. Thanks for your help.

12/20/2009 11:18:36 PM