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Anchorage, Alaska

Does anyone out there add carbon dioxide to their AG greenhouse or seed starting house? I've been doing some research and hear rumors of significant increases in growth rates and yield by doubling the concentration. There is even a study on pine trees which showed CO2 enriched trees to produce more vigorous seeds. They had higher lipid content, germinated faster, and grew more roots as a result.

Many of the crops tested showed greater yields at higher qualities. Extreme concentrations were bad for cucumber leaves, and adding CO2 by burning fossil fuels increased ethylene- a hormone causing your fruit to ripen early.

What do you folks think? Is it worth testing?

http://www.co2science.org/articles/V4/N47/B1.php
http://www.homeharvest.com/carbondioxideenrichment.htm
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/00-077.htm

11/29/2009 12:04:19 AM

Sequim, WA

Dean Biss published an article on this very subject in the PNWGPG newsletter The Main Vine 5 or 6 years ago. He had directions for building a CO2 generator for use in the greenhouse as well. I do not know if he still uses this system or how he feels about how it worked for him. I am unaware of any other growers who may have experimented with it.

11/29/2009 2:39:28 AM

I know pap has mentioned many times that he has added "gas" to their growing program for years

11/29/2009 6:31:33 AM

Rhode Island

yep dan our plants get a steady misting of all natural green house type gas at various patch locations daily.i call it a random gassing.
its not really co2 but a bit more like a fogging of the plants. kills all insects in the area as well.ron has also been on the program for years.

ON A SERIOUS NOTE? DONT SELL THE CO2 COMMENTARY SHORT. SOMETHING NEW ADDED TO OUR PROGRAMS IS WHAT IT WILL TAKE TO GET TO THAT NEXT LEVEL.

PAP

11/29/2009 7:51:46 AM

montgomery,AL

If you beleive the SCIENITISTS- the reason dinosaurs/insects - fana, was so big was because of higher oxygen levels. Today below 19% is oxygen defiencent. Above 21% - oxygen rich. Dinosaur Days Oxygen levels were 23 % plus. Thanks.

11/29/2009 10:00:48 AM

montgomery,AL

If you beleive the SCIENITISTS- the reason dinosaurs/insects - fana, was so big was because of higher oxygen levels. Today below 19% is oxygen defiencent. Above 21% - oxygen rich. Dinosaur Days Oxygen levels were 23 % plus. Thanks.

11/29/2009 10:00:48 AM

Picton,ON ([email protected])

http://www.reforest.com/xtreme-gardening-co2/

11/29/2009 10:00:56 AM

Anchorage, Alaska

Hmm, pap, is there any chance you can share with us what this gas is? I know co2 is more dense than air, and would likely kill insects on the ground near a good fogging.

I am imaging "dry ice bombs" set throughout the patch might do some good - especially through a few weeks of fertilization if the research on the pine seeds has comparable results on pumpkins.

There was an article referenced on the GVGO website on the source-sink relationship of co2 and the best place to set your fruit.

After reading it, I believe a complete CO2 treatment for the entire patch is unnecessary, but it might prove instrumental to "stack" the CO2 source around the photosynthetic sink for our pumpkins. An increase in photosynthesis in the source is going result in more glucose and carbohydrates produced for the pumpkin. (Psst, weight gains!)

11/29/2009 10:03:07 AM

Berlin,mi.([email protected])

I think the gas Dick is talking about is more of the methane variety. lol

11/29/2009 10:12:04 AM

Roselle, IL [email protected]

Country kid, have you used this product from RTI? has anybody else used it? How is it applied and how often?

11/29/2009 10:39:47 AM

Anchorage, Alaska

The RTI product is less than a pound of powdered limestone for $42...just so you know. It is going to dissolve in water and raise the pH of your soil just like regular lime. I wouldn't buy that product.

11/29/2009 11:09:14 AM

Anamosa, IA [email protected]

I would imagine that the increased CO2 content of our atmosphere is partially responsible for the increased yields our farmers are seing in their fields, along with improved plant varieties, pesticides, etc. A couple years ago we had a fairly dry summer and the farmers were all amazed at how well their crops did, probably a result of the increased CO2. But unless you are growing in a greenhouse, I don't see too much advantage in releasing CO2 around your plants. It would just be diluted way to fast to do you any good.

11/29/2009 11:14:45 AM

Albert County, New Brunswick,CANADA

guys that grow pot use co2 to complete an entire crop in 12 weeks or less(probably less),so the same principles should also apply.

11/29/2009 11:35:58 AM

Anchorage, Alaska

You are right pumpkin-eater, the pot growers know CO2 will give them more vegetation in less time. Thankfully for us, the extra CO2 does not decrease how long it takes to grow the plant. AG will still take ~120days for maximum growth.

Atmospheric CO2 has only increased from about 380 to 390ppm over the past five years. It is unlikely this had noticeable effects upon corn crops in a dry summer. Photosynthesis can be limited by CO2, light, and water. A drought would mean the plants would be limited by available water and not the concentration of CO2.

There are peaks in photosynthesis in the temperature range of 20-25°C, where light and water are abundant. If you were to make a "pool" by fencing in your patch, it would temporarily trap the dense co2 long enough for it to be present during the peak. Furthermore, you could use a fan to recycle the ground level co2 back over the leaves.

11/29/2009 2:13:04 PM

North Smithfield, RI

Al Gore and his friends tell us that there is too much CO2 in the air NOW

11/29/2009 5:08:40 PM

Cedar Lake, IN.

Is it true, that under certain soil conditions (garden) the soil has CO2 locked (or slow release) up in it?

11/30/2009 7:45:55 AM

Anamosa, IA [email protected]

Kurty, plants use photosynthesis to convert CO2, water and other nutrients into carbohydrates (organic matter). This is how carbon is sequestered in the soil. Some soil bacteria "eat" the organic matter and give off C02. Some CO2 is trapped in the soil and released when it hits a path to the surface, such as during tillage. Tillage also incorporates oxygen into the soil, which the carbon eating bacteria need to survive. They combine the oxygen with the carbon to create CO2. So tillage feeds the bacteria that eat up your organic matter and help the CO2 to escape to the atmosphere. On small scale operations like gardens, this is of little consequence. But with production agriculture where millions of acres are in production, notill farming can remove large amounts of CO2 from the atmosphere and sequester it in the soil. It is just part of nature's carbon cycle.

11/30/2009 9:33:18 AM

Albert County, New Brunswick,CANADA

yes..just the other day I saw a show on farmers getting carbon credits for "no-till" fields.I think they still grew stuff on them,but without tilling.

11/30/2009 9:51:29 AM

[email protected]

CO2 can be hard to dispense & contain. CO2 generators in the patch can be useful. Somebody was doing this a couple years back. Not sure of the outcome.

11/30/2009 6:57:23 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Geo, was it Al Gore, who spells potato w/ an E??? (at the end)? LOL Peace, Wayne

11/30/2009 9:14:12 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

PW... waZn't it tomatoe......?

CO2 generators are also used for aquatic aquariums as well, some quite elaborate systems there....I am wanting to try one on my 170, but we need some more data on the CO2 benefits or not on AG's. Hasnt European growers been using this type of product for years?

12/1/2009 8:59:15 AM

Anchorage, Alaska

Article 1) CO2 enrichment of strawberry and cucumber plants grown in unheated greenhouses in Israel Cucumber plants of cultivar ‘Elem’ grown at 3000 v.p.m. CO2 yielded 26 % more over the whole picking season than those grown at 300 v.p.m. Yield during the first month of picking was doubled by both a 3- and a 10-fold increase in aerial CO2 concentration.

Article 2) Total Weights(plant mass): CO2 enriched plants were 83% heavier than control plants at d 16, but only 11% heavier by d 36. For the next two harvests total weights were virtually identical in the enriched and nonenriched treatments (Table I). Root Weights: CO2 enrichment increased root weights 69%
and 58% for the first two harvests, respectively, but root weights did not differ significantly in the last two harvests (Table I). Root/shoot ratios which are generally reported to be higher CO2 enriched plants...
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/80/1/59.pdf

12/1/2009 10:15:22 AM

Anchorage, Alaska

The most interesting finding in article 2 was the average weight of cucumbers. In 350ppm CO2, the average was 187.13g/fruit. In 1000ppm CO2, it was 203.76g/fruit. +8.9% heavier.

1725(1.089)= 1878.

I have not uncovered any peer reviewed articles on pumpkins and CO2. They take too long to grow, are a low dollar crop, and use too much space. We may have to come to our own conclusions with data intended for closely related species.

12/1/2009 10:38:59 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

Newman,

The Ph changes bothers me.....we are alkaline big time here in Colorado....I need to lower the Ph not raise it....Should I stay away from this? Please advise??

12/1/2009 12:41:24 PM

Anchorage, Alaska

The co2 will change the pH of standing water, but it will not change the soil unless you apply it as a solid like lime or a liquid. If you apply it as a gas, it will not noticeably change your pH. The molecule likes to remain a gas unless broken down by a plant - which is what we want.

The carbon cycle works like this; plants use up co2 to form carbohydrates, the plants die, decomposition reforms the co2 and it is released back into the atmosphere.

Ideally, it should be treated like any fertilizer. Apply it at a controlled rate. The best results will be from an enclosed environment like Iowegian said where you know exactly how much you need to double or triple the concentration.

12/1/2009 1:55:54 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

http://www.lithovit.co.nz/

Check it out......RTI has it for sale.....

12/1/2009 2:45:31 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Lithovit ® CO2 foliar fertilizer for outdoor use; calcium carbonate 83 from natural mineral limestone deposits, with micro-nutrients, easily assimilable

77.9 % calcium carbonate
8.7 % magnesium carbonate
7.4 % silica
0.2 % potassium oxide
0.03 % sodium
0.02 % phosphate
7,418 mg/kg iron
6,347 mg/kg alumina
278 mg/kg sulphate
804 mg/kg strontium
174 mg/kg barium
172 mg/kg manganese
10 mg/kg zinc

Harmless to humans and animals, not hazardous to water



Suitable for use in organic farming
according to Council Regulation (EEC) No. 2092/91 – European Community

12/1/2009 2:47:46 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

RTI has a similar product as this to use....

12/1/2009 2:48:33 PM

Anchorage, Alaska

Many of the benefits they ascribe to the product are a result of the potassium and trace nutrients. Things like resistance to frost, green coloration, etc. You should also notice that they say "not suitable for plants preferring an acid soil". It changes the pH because it is the same as applying lime.

You might notice their experimental evidence on the benefits of CO2 were based on atmospheric CO2 and not calcium carbonate on leaves. They made an assumption that the stomata are on the upper region of the leaves rather than the lower region where you would find them in pumpkins. Even if you applied the chemical to the bottom of the leaves, the turgor pressure causing the stomata to open would create a concentration gradient deterring outside water from coming in. As a gas, co2 does have the ability to enter the cell at that time. If you were to look at the cell later in the day, transpiration would still be pushing water out and not in. There would be a minimal amount of the gas phase produced as the water evaporated, but you are limited to applications of two weeks or one at most whereas you can apply a gas every day.

From: KRUPA, S.V. and KICKERT, R.N. (1993) The Greenhouse Effect – The Impacts of Carbon Dioxide (CO2), Ultraviolet-B (UV-B) Radiation and Ozone (O3) on Vegetation (Crops). Vegetatio 104: 223-238

12/1/2009 11:40:13 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Back in 2007 my pb had CO2 for breakfast every day by means of a propane space heater on for half an hour or so whilst I tended the plants.I think it helped but don't have a CO2 meter to say exactly how much levels were raised.That was in a polytunnel.I think decaying OM in the soil produces CO2 as well,the leaf canopy of pumpkins is ideally suited to making the most of that.

12/5/2009 1:05:16 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Lithovit ® CO2 is not a gas it is very fine Calcium impregnated with CO2. The particle size is what is most important. The product sits on the leaf as a solid embedded in the nano sized Ca particle. RTI, Co2 is calcium carbonate in a special nanoparticle size. When the stomata opens up it takes in the smaller particle Ca and the CO2. The Ca is released and the gas is given up. Both sides of the leaves must be sprayed to obtain maximum benefit. Spraying the pumpkin plants leaves underside is more important then the top of the leaf due a 3 to 1 stomata ratio from bottom to top.

"During the heat stressed days of August, RTI CO2 doused leaves withstand the daily inferno by keeping the stomata tightly closed thereby reducing the demand for cooling moisture and further slows respiration out of the leaves. This response not only conserves moisture within the plant but also can maintain a more constant xylem flow up the calcium river into the fruit. Several growers in the test group have reported a crinkled or rippled leaf effect. It is this stomata closing reaction that conserves moisture and allows the plant to carry on with the normal production of photosynthesis and it's by products. The plant is therefore able to function more normally while typical respiration occurs."

I have an article appearing in the soon to be released GVGO newsletter this month. For more info stay tuned. Neil Anderson will also be appearing the upcoming Niagara Falls convention in March to expand on the discussions.

The GVGO test group had very good results in a most trying year. The product is still largely a mystery to most growers but has been researched by the GVGO and the GPC extensively.

http://gvgo.ca/mb/index.php?topic=1420.0

Russ

12/5/2009 6:22:38 PM

North Smithfield, RI

Understand the Co2 thing now. Got the SNPG Newsletter yesterday. I think Al Goroe would approve !!!

12/6/2009 3:38:54 PM

churchville, ny

Yes, powdered limestone is calcium carbonate(CaCo3)which also makes up chalk, tums and marble. By adding an acid you easily produce CO2. I'm a retired Earth Science teacher and many times did demos showing this to my students (CaCo3 + HCl = CaCl2 + H20 +CO2). You could use vinegar or even "acid rain" for this reaction. The atmosphere is 78% nitogen gas, 21% oxygen gas and ONLY a miniscule .03% C02. After reading all the info above, I may try to build a CO2 generator for this season - powered limestone is fairly inexpensive and it would help with the calcium needs but as The Wiz said I'd have to watch my pH. If you need calcium and magnesium you can use powdered dolomite.

12/6/2009 11:22:02 PM

Eastern Washington State

Newman seems like this might be a viable idea providing you can contain the gas in some sort of enclosure.

HOWEVER, exposure to excess carbon dioxide CAN KILL YOU! Make sure that you have a trustworthy regulator to dispense it. I'd say first thing you ought to do when entering the enclosure is check the tank levels to see if they've dropped way too far. If you feel faint, get out of there pronto!

12/7/2009 8:38:06 PM

Sequim, WA

Ferment your molasses in the cloche. That'll raise CO2 levels.

12/7/2009 9:47:21 PM

United States

Lithovit on YouTube.
Not just limestone,
Lithovit Increases Good CO2+ Calcium+ Essential Micro Nutrients+ Neg Charge+ Oxygenated Delivery Platform.
1 teaspoon/gal keep dry lasts forever.
5 pumpkins last year
4 broke previous years world record
1 Canadian Record!
"Proof in pudding"
usalithovit .com

9/10/2010 5:05:51 PM