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Team Munson

You traded your seeds and then saw many of your seeds being sold for personal gain?

You see a grower getting out of the hobby and ask them for your seeds you gave them to plant and they trade or sell them and deny your request?

A heavy hitter asks you for a seed and you do not have one to give because you traded to many seeds away so as not to offend the growers mailing you?

You send out 400 seeds and can only see 100 or so that ever hit dirt because to many collect seeds and never use them?

All the genetics are the same then why do you get 300 - 400 bubbles & seed requests a year?

I am curious to see what you would do, after 20 years most of you know my answers. I am tired of feeling like the "Bad Guy" when I spend so much time trying to do better by all growers.

Dave

11/13/2009 8:51:02 AM

Austria

Only give seeds to those who promise to grow them the next year. If they don't, they're put on your personal "seed black list"

11/13/2009 9:02:46 AM

Paradise Mountain, New York

1)I totally disagree with anyone who gets seeds from other growers at the end of each year then you see were that person goes to sell them. Clubs should be the only one that can sell them for a way to make money for weigh-off price money or other club needs.

2)Anyone getting out of growing these giants should tell all the growers and if they don't want there seeds back, divide your seed collection up and give it to clubs to sell the seeds at there auctions (seed sales) in the winter.

3)I guess if you get a seed from a grower it's yours to do as you wish, but if your doing heavy trading, who is to say your getting the real seed. Best bet is to ask the grower for the seed to get the real thing.

4) Once Dick Wallace said to me, Give your seeds to as many growers as you can to get your seeds out there to get it proven. Since then, other growers have told me the same thing. It's the only way to see what a seed can do.

11/13/2009 9:45:33 AM

Paradise Mountain, New York

5) I would have to disagree that all genetics are the same. If they were, we could take any seed and plant it and get every pumpkin planted over 1,000 lbs. Every seed has it's own DNA.

6) Back in the winter of 2002 when I got into asking for seeds and sending mine to the growers first, I sent to 107 growers. I got seeds back from everyone of them. You have to express yourself as why you want there seeds, why you love growing these giants.

In every book Don has written about growing Atlantic Giants, he has expressed a lot that you need to each year to send to as many growers as you can to get there seeds. Then in a year or two you will have grown a great seed or you will have a great seed that has been well proven.

11/13/2009 9:54:24 AM

Paradise Mountain, New York

To sum this whole post up, Where would we all be today if all the growers over all these years never asked growers for there seeds? Where would we be today if we never sent our seeds to growers who wanted to give a unproven seed a chance? If everyone took there seeds and stuck them in a jar and they just sat there, I guess there better at being in many growers hand to see what they could do then sitting on a shelf or in a freezer in a jar.

11/13/2009 9:58:10 AM

Claysburg , PA

Only give seeds out to people who promise to grow them and some to clubs for auctions.
I have only ask for several seeds this year off of growers and they will see dirt .
Most off my top notch seeds have been purchased at auctions which gives me the right to do with them of whatever I want. If I would like to sell them I should be able to do that but I DO NOT. I even give some good ones away as long as they get planted.

11/13/2009 10:01:46 AM

Ohio

I kinda disagree on the get as many seeds from as many growers as you can theory. If you been around a while and most growers know who you are and you ask them for a seed and say your going to plant it, chances are you will get that seed.
Its a trust thing between the grower and the person sending the seed. If you say your going to grow it and then get that seed from that grower, show him the respect of growing it.(sure there will be germination problems sometimes, if so just email the grower and tell them)
Just this year alone I have been able to get 3 seed request this year from 3 different growers who are happy to send me their seed that know I'm going to grow there seed once I get it.

Another good example for me was the 1068 Wallace seed when it wasn't as popular.
I told Ron/Pap Wallace that I would grow that seed every time I asked for it, they sent me one every year for about 4 years straight untill the supply run low.
Hell they even sent me another one when I had trouble germinating .

Its a trust thing, show the growers that when your asking for their seed that it will defiantly see dirt, if not explain the reason why to them it was never grown that year. Again, its a trust and respect thing, I think.

11/13/2009 10:17:16 AM

Dillsburg, PA

I only request seeds that I have plans for. I don't collect seeds like baseball cards. At my house now I might have 3-4 seeds from other growers they sent me. Burns my A$$ that when I want a particular seed I have to spend $100+ on it at auction. It is what it is though and many here are to blame.

11/13/2009 10:31:18 AM

Somers, CT

I would be a bit upset if I was a HH and my seeds were being sold. From the recipient side, this stinks for me because I may ask Dave for a seed and he may think I will sell it. The great thing about this site, the GPC and all the great people here are that people like Dave, Ron & Dick, Joe P andthe rest are willing to give us a chance to grow a great seed. I would hope not to see that opportunity go away. Dave could just as easily limit distribution by just donating seeds to organizatiions for auctions.

11/13/2009 10:33:32 AM

Cedar Lake, IN.

Your always going to be the "Bad Guy" to a few no matter what. Your 904 Stelts is my favorite seed. I will be growing a couple of plants from her offsprings next year.

11/13/2009 10:55:06 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

The genetics ARE the same if we're using proper pollination techniques. Then why do we flock to the big name seeds? There is one other reason, and we all know what it is...

If I were to grow a 1500 pounder (not likely) with a cross between (Stelts, Werner, Wallace, Pukos... insert some other good names), that is, the 1503 Warren (F-1662 Stelts X M-1385 Jutras), I'd probably make a big name of myself and get lots of attention from people wanting to grow my seed. I think we need to "get over that" to some degree.

Then on the other hand, this system gets us to limit the genetic pool to some degree. We are passing along only a few of the genes,... well, there is a lot of thought that could go into that, but it may actually be a good thing we are doing to the overall gene pool.

If I can get a 904 Stelts, I'll plant it. ;-) But it's a shame if it's sitting in a shoebox under someone's bed, with no intentions of getting planted. I think the auctions are healthy if the prices are reasonable. No way I'm paying $100+ for a seed that might not even germinate. But if someone out there is willing to pay it, oh well...

Maybe straight seed sales, via clubs, with prices between $5 and $30, would get seeds into the hands of those who really want them and will plant them.

What I'm saying is, the current system means that two hundred 904 Stelts are sitting in shoeboxes under someones's bed, and another 50 get into a grower's hands who paid $100+ plus for it. Why not sell all of them, via the club, for $30 until they're sold out? Anyone who forks over $30 is going to get a seed that they really want and will plant it. (Now, I'm just making an example here, I have no idea of the actual 904 Stelts availability, I haven't talked with Dave at all, this is just an example to illustrate the point.)

Due to the potential for counterfeiting, nobody ought to buy a seed that doesn't come from a reputable organization.

It would be nice if we lived in a perfect worl

11/13/2009 11:59:41 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

It would be nice if we lived in a perfect world, lol!

11/13/2009 12:01:28 PM

Knopp, Germany

Dave, you are not the bad guy. The answers to your questions are obvious.

Thank you for all you have done. BTW all the Stelts seeds I have have been won at an auction or through club membership, we all all not like those you have described.

owen

11/13/2009 12:20:00 PM

Ohio

lol cliff!!
This is a good thread. I think what it will be coming down to in years to come and already is starting to happen is growers giving their seeds to their clubs to distribute . I think it would be alot easier on the more popular growers for sure, Quinn last year sent out over what, 300 or 400 bubbles?,, year after year that would start getting old I think, and kinda take the fun out of the hobby even though you would like everyone to get a seed.

I tried getting a 1500 seed from Chad Revier last year to grow and didnt take it the wrong way when he told me he didnt have any left to give out, I knew everyone was wanting that seed last year.
But then some growers dont understand this and take it personal in which they shouldn't.
Then you can look at this year, how many of the 1500's was grown?,,, not very many, so you can see where this kinda upsets the growers who sent the seed out that could have had it grown by someone who really wanted to grow it this year. (not that Chad was upset about this, I'm just using him as a example)
We all know that these growers aren't trying to be the bad guy by not giving everyone a seed who asks for one, cause if you ever sent out 3 to 400 bubbles at the end of the season you might think differently about what these popular growers go threw.

11/13/2009 12:43:50 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

Is "Crazy Seed Trade" considered personal gain or personal loss? The jury is still out on that one.

Dave, you are not the bad guy. Perhaps I am. I do still send out a lot of requests as I simply can not afford to compete at the auctions so I try and get a seed before it gets hot and avoid the dreaded email or phone call... Um, hi, this is Brett, can I have a cookie?

11/13/2009 1:25:09 PM

Ham Lake, Minnesota

Dave, great questions. I think if money were not involved in this hobby, there wouldn't be such problems. If you remember I did write to ask for a 904 last year and promised to grow it. You made it quite clear you were short and down to personal reserve. I respect that and it's fair and square. I did happen to secure one through an auction and it was my intention all along to make the 1385x904 cross which I did and I'm a happy camper now. You are right there is likely a good chance someone out there got one and held onto it, while there were others like me who wanted it as part of a great cross. Now those other folks can post "I have a 904, what do you have for me?" As if they deserve something special for something they were given free, of course unless they paid for it fair and square.

11/13/2009 2:16:04 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

Dave your not the bad guy! If i ask for a seed it will see dirt thats only proper. By giving seeds in good faith you should expect that one way or the other that it will be planted. Somebody that asks for seeds from you and then sells them for money is a jerk. If the top growers did this then the hobby would die. Many people have given me seeds and every one of them has or will see dirt. Thats what makes the sport so great. The corespondance and meeting the growers.thats what we do. You're not the bad guy.

11/13/2009 3:27:39 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Alex B, I might want to try your cross. Will send email...

11/13/2009 4:07:01 PM

Linden,PA

Dave, I would like one of your 1662.5 Stelts seeds with with an autographed picture and a detailed list of what you did to grow that pumpkin that size. I will plant the seed and try to follow your recipe for success in 2010! Email me at [email protected] Thanks, Mark

11/13/2009 4:12:05 PM

Jericho Vermont

I am very happy to give my seeds out regardless. In my opinion it is what this hobby should be about. Many a new grower would never become interested if it were any different.

11/13/2009 4:37:01 PM

Sequim, WA

It gets tougher every year as this hobby continues to grow. I personally haven't sent out a bubble pack in years. I also had taken a couple years away from growing for competition and had no need to add seeds. I did request one seed from a grower I know this year and was able to get it from him directly at a weighoff. It will be in a peat pot in April and my patch in May. It seems the way to go now is to support your clubs and donate the seeds for them to distribute and auction and reserve a few for yourself for trade bait with other growers who's seeds you desire. As for a grower selling a seed they were given by another grower I find the practice unethical and would never sell another growers seed or purchase one from an individual. The auctions get too steep for my budget, but I find I get some pretty good seeds from my club distribution and I have an extensive collection of old seeds that I feel I can do well with. I think a lot of it will come down to relationships, I've never had a seed that many people wanted, but I know the growers I have met have always been generous when I've made a request. Most that I don't know personally have also been generous. When the answer is no, there should not be a problem with that. I think that the networking being done by many of the clubs allows their membership access to great seeds from all over the country and it's well worthwhile to join one or more clubs for that reason alone.

11/13/2009 4:40:01 PM

Belgium Europe

If 'promiss to grow ' is required for seedrequest i rather buy the seeds. I like to be able to change my lineup till planting day.

11/13/2009 4:41:26 PM

[email protected]

It would be a LOT of work but serializing every seed then tracking who has them all would help. Growers would be much less likely to become traders but those who did would be more likely to seek authorization. It would reduce fakes too.

11/13/2009 6:18:18 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

Tremor, I actually do that already. Any pumpkin or squash seed that comes into or leaves my house is serial numbered. Even those I get from other growers, I write on every one. It is a bit more work, but there is never a question. Many people have tracked seeds via this system to cofirn they are authentic.

11/13/2009 6:30:49 PM

Ohio

Jos, you do have a valid point there and I see where your coming from.

11/13/2009 6:54:10 PM

Williamsport, Pa.

i have seen this too many times. some people on here are grabbers..alies seed horders, collectors.this makes a guy like me unable to ask for seeds..i read these post every day.. the askers, not every one, will be trading the seeds they ask for a few months later for another.this is why i buy at auction, not that i can afford it , but thats what i do.

11/13/2009 7:08:39 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

I think we may need some definitions here. So a "Hoarder" is only someone who acquires seeds and never does anything with them? Or, is a "Hoarder" someone who acquires seeds and moves them around or plants them? I am trying to classify myself with this new school way of thinking. I have more than a few seeds as most people know, but I am fairly confident that people know me as also being very generous. I guess I am lost in this one. Help me out guys.

11/13/2009 7:19:48 PM

Joliet, IL

i like the promise to grow approach. i have emailed growers and asked permission to send them a bubble for several years. many heavy hitters have sent me seeds over the years and are very generous and it is much appreciated. last year i was interested in the 1185 daletas and steve said his counts were low, but if i promised to grow it, he would let me try one. it grew my 1125 this year and i was happy to prove out his seed and also grow a nice pumpkin. everyone wins when a grower is asked kindly for a seed with 100% intentions to grow it and the grower actually does make it see dirt, and helps prove out the cross. if a grower says sorry, not enough to go around, that is time to pick one up at an auction if you have the cash. if you do not, pick another great cross out there. seed hoarding just for collection sake makes me sick. the older a seed gets and the less viable it becomes with out seeing dirt is a sin. recycle your seed collections in a timely fashion by donating them to your club for auction, or trade them for newer crosses. but do not let them sit in a drawer or a freezer without ever getting a chance to do their things just so you can look at them. that is a sickness.

anyone looking to recycle some older seeds and do not want to grow them should first contact the grower to see if they want them back, and if not, put a post on the seed exchange board saying you are willing to trade them or just give them to growers who promise they will grow them.

come on everyone, time to clean out some of the older good seeds and get them planted by someone before they lose their ability to sprout at all.

11/13/2009 7:23:08 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

Its funny, when started, you could send out 20 bubble packs and pretty much cover everyone. I even saved my first big name pack of seeds, well the coin envelope anyway. I planted that 567 Mombert a long time ago.

Now the world record of my origin is not even half of the world record, and an 827 pound pumpkin is considered 'cute'. As I dig my head out of the sand that it has been stuck in for the past few years, I see there is a lot more that I need to catch up on than just compost tea.

11/13/2009 7:29:50 PM

Frankfort Ohio

i did not want to ask heavy hitters for a seed but this year i emailed 2 and asked them if they could tell me if any of my local clubs would have any for auction because i was intersted in growing it next year both offered to send me what i was looking for the seeds will see dirt next year this makes more money available for patch supplies money is kinda tight first half of this year i was layed off i will still try to support some clubs if i trade these seeds later i think that is fine but i have 2 that will be in my patch thanks to generous growers

11/13/2009 7:38:01 PM

[email protected]

Al Eaton numbers seeds too Brett. His numerals are distinctive enough they're hard to fake.

Numbering is more work but it makes tracking the chain of custody AND authenticity easier to deal with.

11/13/2009 7:49:23 PM

Las Cruces NM

Dear Dave, Any hobby can become a bussiness, the only diferance is if you can make a buck at it. Most heavy hitters like yourself could make a buck at it -- I would buy you seed. But I also think one must remember their roots as everyone started with seeds from someone and that is how the hobby grew ... that is how AGs got to 1725lbs... and how did you come by a 1350 starr this year? Your Werner? Your Pukos? Now lots of 904Stelts hit the dirt, but no one would want them if they didn't produce. That is, if a seed is not grown by someone it can't ever be proven seed, nor contribute to the gene pool by being crossed. etc. Thoes with good seed are just as dependant, if not more so, on growers of their seeds. Now I sent out 6 mailers for giant vegitables, but only to folks that offered me their seeds. And I hope they are as pleased that I'm growing them as I am to grow them. The root of this hobby (or sport if you prefer) is seed exchange -- I wouldn't let a few marketers distract from that! Besides, I don't think I could fully trust a seed's genetics if I didn't get it from the source. If I were in your shoes, I would probably have a grow list and a black list, but I'm not so I just have all these roasted seeds I'm enjoying and sharing :)

11/13/2009 8:10:26 PM

Long Island,New York

Be careful what you wish for. If you eliminate the "wasted seeds" sitting in what some are calling "hoards" and all seeds become available from the growers 2-3-4-5 years after they were pulled from the pumpkins-----then there will be no auctions, no seed sales at Niagara,elk grove, no funds for clubs to function with, and no payouts at wieghoffs. The ramafications need to be thought through.

11/13/2009 8:10:51 PM

[email protected]

Seed Outlet started this way.

11/13/2009 8:38:10 PM

Adams County

I have begged , pleaded and begged some more . for a 1450 Wallace. and i do have a chance to get one. if i do get it ,it will be planted next spring. I also traded a 1207 Young, that i bought at an auction , for a seed that is not proven yet . But I like the cross so well. and the grower, that the trade was worth it to me . so to the best of my ability i only trade or ask for seeds that i intend to grow , withen the next 2 seasons.... so if i do ask for a seed , it will be grown

11/13/2009 9:31:44 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I'm reading these posts and the more I read the more frustated I get. Dave, draw your line in the sand. Clearly state to anyone requesting your seeds what you require then call them out if they renege. There will never be a concensus amongst growers. I've sent seed requests to growers who said they are yours to do what you want. Other growers wanted to be notified if you did plant the seed and some wanted a guarantee their seed would be planted. Call a spade a spade. This topic comes up year after year. It's up to each grower to set their own terms and live and die by those terms. Dave, this obviously is a great concern to you as evidenced by your post. The Big Pumpkin community needs to hold anyone accountable who clearly violates the sprit of a good faith trade. Otherwise, let the grower and recipient settle things privately.

PS- I'm at the point where if there is a particular seed I want,I ask, if I get it great, if not it's all good.. This is a good place, only a few create the need for posts like this.
Have a great week-end- Andy.

11/13/2009 9:56:56 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

I feel that once you give or trade seeds, you have done just that, gave them or traded them...I feel that the stipulation of having to grow them is too much. I for one have changed my line up right up to the day I start the seeds.
I think that if you give or trade your seeds, then 2 yrs down the road it is the new Hot seed and you want it back is comical, why not just say "you can do what you please with the seed as long as it doesn’t become popular, if it does, I want it back"?.... I use to send out as many bubbles as I could, those days are gone, the past few years I have been limiting my bubbles for those growers that I swap seeds with.
I’ve given a ton of seeds away, some were my own, some seeds were very valuable, just to put a smile on a friends face, remember the excitement of getting that special, sought after dream seed and being able to plant it?
We are always saying that the sport has evolved due to the information that is accessible to everyone, let’s not forget the seeds, the sport has evolved because seeds are very accessible too.
If you put too many rules on your seeds, growers will start growing seeds that share the same genetics, every year there are more new growers trying more crosses, you may make your seeds obsolete.
I think we should take a step back and remember....they are seeds, this is supposed to be fun.....keep the sport fun.
This is just my opinion - Tom

11/13/2009 11:39:36 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

I have been trying to ask first before sending that bubble, and this year I'm asking for donations for club auction. If you send me something, I try to send something back. If I sent that bubble, I try to put something in it.

The gray area I'm having to face because some donations were for the club seedbank, some were gifts to me, and a few I bought/traded for.

How to proceed without ticking someone off, I don't know if I can. I will do my best on trying to make sure something sees dirt one way or another; grow it or make sure it gets grown even if it wasn't me (I want a seed to see dirt); and.

I will be sending out a number of filled bubbles to firsttimers; passing on the kindness I was shown.

If I have something you grew and want back, let me know. I'll send it. I also understand if I send the bubble and it doesn't come back. (not enough to go around, etc)

If something was planted, I try to provide what happened, whether I grew it or someone else here did.

Again, it's a gray area. The club needs to raise money this year, I can't continue to hemorrage $ like I did this year for it; but. A few are going to receive emails on seeds I know came from them, if I may auction them or not. If you get one, and want the seeds back, I will send them. Else understand they were auctioned to keep growing alive here...

Dave, you're not the heavy, either.

11/13/2009 11:56:28 PM

Ham Lake, Minnesota

Also people who double bubble ruin things for the honest folka. When that happens, I can totally understand if top grower says 'enough of this' and just fills the club requests and for close friends.

11/14/2009 12:23:35 AM

Indiana

I wish for every 400 I sent out that 100 would get planted..LMAO its more like 1 gets planted and its usually in my patch

11/14/2009 1:00:03 AM

Western PA

Dave,

I would probably be pissed off if I traded seeds with someone then I saw that they had sold them. But then again, I did give it to them...
I personally would never sell anothers persons seeds with out permission from them. I don't think seeds should be sold (except by clubs) I enjoy giving my seeds away. Then again, I don't get 400 bubbles a year....

I think there is a un written rule in the pumpkin growing community which states: "I will not sell another persons seeds"

I think when one does this, he opens the door for more to do this which then takes away the trust and scouts honer code of seed swapping.

I think the selling of anothers seed without premission from the grower is a blackball able offense!

Assuming I asked a grower for a seed and it was given to me with a restriction I had to grow it, If I really wanted the seed I would agree and o bide by the growers wishes.

If there is no restriction provided by the grower, I should be able to do as I please with the seed, Except for the #1 deadly sin: "Selling the seed" Under no circumstances should this occur!! Unless your house is being foreclosed on..lol

11/14/2009 3:15:52 AM

Western PA

We need to continue to swap seeds amongst each others, this is how people get started in this hobby and how newer growers that have not been around for a while obtain there seeds, Infact this is how just about all of us obtain our seeds.

if the seed is not planted this year maybe it will be next year, heck how can you ever have a hot seed if all of them are planted in the first year and there are none left to grow next year except for the 10 you kept for your self!


You won't find me blowing a hundo on a seed!! Would you buy a tv for a hundo that might or might not work? I think it is waste of money when you can get comparable genetics for free from generous growers.

11/14/2009 3:31:36 AM

Western PA

To much caffeine tonight!

My last comment: Regarding clubs, with the prices of these seeds getting so out of control these days in auctions and seed sales, these clubs are seeing a ton of money pass through their hands... Is their any outside source checking money in/money out financial records to confirm everything is on the up and up?

I am not implying anything/ Just wondering.

11/14/2009 3:45:00 AM

Ohio

Great question Jim, I often wondered that myself how that is done. But to tell you the truth, I think most of it is done by trust. But if someone did have a question about someone in a club that has 'charge' over these type finances, all he/she as a member would just have to ask for the records, they have a right to know and see them.(well, should have anyway).

Like our Union at work, a check cant be sent out or cashed unless it is signed by at least 2 high ranking members, like the President, secretary, vice President. But that would be hard to do in a clubs case I think, since everyone doesnt meet that often.

I think that it would be really hard to track Jim, really hard, thats when trust plays a big part, but as you know all of us has seen some things, or knew some people that we never would have believed they would do something bad untill we see it with our own eyes ether,,lol. Good question though Jimmy!

11/14/2009 4:50:13 AM

Johnston, R.I.

Dave ......The real question seems to be what are you going to do ??

11/14/2009 8:39:29 AM

Leicester, NY

I agree for the most part that once the seed is given away, it becomes the property of the receiver. A few years ago, I had a person ask for one of my seeds. It was a seed that I believe had auction value. My personal supply was very low and at first I had told the grower no, but changed my mind and sent one out. I was disappointed when 2 days after I mailed it, he offered the seed for trade online. Like Tom P. says, this whole experience is supposed to be fun, but when stuff like this happens, the fun seems to go away. Thankfully, the good times far outweigh the bad and we’re still having tons of fun.

Returning hundreds of bubbles per year takes a lot of time. I understand where Dave is coming from and I think its okay to just say no. Dave, you’re not a bad guy at all. You give countless hours of your time to the pumpkin world and I say thanks.

This has been mentioned many times in the past, but if one decides not to return bubbles, it might be best if that person gets some seeds into the hands of the clubs. That way, hopefully some seeds will still get out to the masses and at least have a chance see some soil. How many days until spring?

11/14/2009 8:49:15 AM

Saegertown Pa.

The way we trade seeds has to change there are just to many growers now, if you do the numbers and every one sent a bubble to me like Don's book's tell you to do and some HH are telling growers to do there aren't enough to go around. I know were Dave is coming from, if I got 400 bubbles like he has in the past and some dumb shit sold a seed or traded for a dog when I gave it to him for free and it cost me money to send to him I would be done to. I'm honored when some one plants my seed's and I won't to thank all the people that have planted my seeds and sent nice letters and email's, there are some real nice people that grow pumpkins. But if your one of those people that are only going to collect them or use them for trade bait DON'T send me a bubble. I don't think most people realize how much time and money it takes to fill all the bubbles. Most people still don't send enough postage and the out of country bubbles are getting out of control I have to stand in line for ever to get them mailed. I hold 100 seeds back from each pumpkin then I donate some to are club for are seed sale after that if there isn't enough to fill the 150 to 200 bubbles I get every year I don't send them out unless you are going to plant them. When I start getting over 200 like a lot of other people do I will have to change the way I hand out seeds.

11/14/2009 10:04:50 AM

Gays Mills, Wisconsin

FYI...
Thanks to the 4 growers I requested seed from last year. They all saw dirt.......and an unusually hard mid-May frost :(
I think its pumpkin grower etiquette to only request seed that you plan to plant yourself.
John "Cornhusk" Barlow

11/14/2009 10:08:47 AM

Last year I asked Quinn for His address to send a bubble to him because I really like the crosses and the shape of the pumpkins in his Diary. This was done way before the seeds became popular. He kindly responed that he would return a bubble if I had promised to grow the seeds that spring. I was already committed to another grower to do just that and I have only room for two plants each year. Since he had offered to do just what I was asking for, I felt it was more important to do what he was asking for.

I did not send out a bubble to him because of his honest response and out of respect for his wishes. I spent my time purchasing what I could afford in the club auctions and although I was not able to get the seeds I really liked, I was able to honor the request of a grower that I really admire.

11/14/2009 10:28:18 AM

The bottom of New Jersey

I personally think it's a bit rude to ask a heavy hitter for a free seed if I don't know him/her personally. At the very least I would offer 5 bucks or something to cover their time and the tremendous effort put into growing these pumpkins. I am able to acquire plenty of seeds with good genetics through club membership packages and the occasional bubble pack sent to someone like Eddy Z who makes a public offer to help out a worthy cause. That is plenty of seeds for me, with enough left over to distribute to friends, etc. in my area who are interested in getting into the sport, or who just want to see what they can grow.

I know selling seed is seen as taboo by many growers, and there are many generous folks who would turn down my 5 dollar offer and send me a seed for free. Their generosity should never be forgotten, but unfortunately it is inevitable that they will be taken advantage of by some. We are a capitalist society after all and with a surge in popularity come the opportunists who want to make a buck. I think the best you can do is identify those people if you wish and try to keep your seeds out of their hands. Beyond that, I think trying to enforce most other rules of seed distribution would be an excercise in frustration. Once a seed or transplant leaves my posession it is no longer mine, whether it gets sold, eaten, planted or not. In my opinion it is not worth stressing over, there is too much fun to be had in this sport to worry about it! Then again, I am no heavy hitter.

11/14/2009 10:32:30 AM

Rhode Island

as a grower i learned an important lesson last year.
i saw a valuable wallace seed offered for sale/trade and reacted as if the person had snatched it run from under my nose.
thinking it was a seed i had given him ? but it was not the case? i felt like a jerk, as well i should have.

this is what can happen when you try and manage what happens to your seeds once they leave your hands and into a requested bubble pack.

on the other side of the coin though? a top grower cant satisfy everyone and i know what dave is refering to.

what ron and i do is send out as many return bubbles as we can via the requests we get in. we always ask the grower to specify what seed they would like.

i respect a comment ron made to me several years ago. he said "when we started out we sent bubbles to as many grower of big pumpkins as we could, now? its our turn to return the favor. " besides, they cant get planted or proven if they are sitting in a shoe box or in your freezer.

there is just a ton more growers requesting these days---lol and thats where a lot of the problems come from.ya cant satisfy everyone.

pap

11/14/2009 10:51:48 AM

Linden,PA

As a new grower, I am looking for good genetics. There are certain growers that have spend countless years developing great genetics, be it orange or heavy or both.
I email growers asking for certain seeds containing these genetics, so hopefully someday I can get that perfect pumpkin that everyone wants a seed from.
Most of these growers have been very honest and generous. They let you know which seeds are available and which are not. I think these growers go out of their way to accommodate requests.
I know I won't be able to plant all the seeds I get in one year. If someone requests that a seed be planted, I try to honor that request.
Getting seeds with great genetics from these growers is greatly appreciated especially for someone like me just starting this hobby. Mark

11/14/2009 11:33:47 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Let me take a moment and add, Dave is a great guy, one of the best, very generous, and always putting the growing community first, I dont think Dave is a bad guy at all, my reply was a general reply, not directed at Dave.
I think it is just better to say "no, I don't have enough seeds to send" then to set ourselves up for disappointment by making someone promise to grow the seed.

11/14/2009 11:48:53 AM

Dummer Twp - Ontario

Very good comments all around.

I'm sure its disappointing to have seeds sold on you when you gave them out. There will always be people who do the wrong thing it doesn't matter if its pumpkin seeds or trading marbles. If people are bashing certain individuals for not trading the way they see fit then they can grow their own seeds and see how they do. If more people actually grew their own seeds they would see that they have great genetics also. We here at the GVGO are trying to promote our own seeds and have been seeing success lately and alot of the top growers do the same. I have requested seeds and most of the time it works out but I do realize that I'm only one in several thousand so we all have to be realistic.

11/14/2009 4:27:45 PM

[email protected]

Let's consider another couple possible angles: Investment grade speculative purchases & failures.

Prospecting seeds on paper can be good when it works or bad.

Our club ID'ed the 664 Liggett on paper for what it later became long before it had really "arrived" on scales. We (individuals & club funds) bought up all the seeds that were offered at the OH clubs seed sale & later auction one year. That seed could have been a slug & we'd have been screwed. We took a chance (to the benefit of the OH club) that eventually paid off. But the OH club probably doesn't agree today LOL. Their gamble paid off for our club but had they never offered it (along with other seeds that never scored) they'd have never profited at all on the lesser seeds that were also offered that year.

Members of the club have now restricted volume purchases. This could eventually work against the club if the members don't rally around every seed that doesn't sell right away.

If all the 801's & 904's were sitting in jars & sock drawers, would anyone want them?

How many of Tom's 400 seeds did find soil only to later die? I personally killed 2 1068s before it became a hotty.

I've also killed 3 904s these past 2 years. All three germinated fine; one developed pythium & 2 were slow so were culled in the patch. Most growers don't announce their failures. If I was too embarrassed to admit these failures, wouldn't I appear to be hoarding 904s now?

I know a very accomplished (& famous) grower who will only start two or more seeds. He cannot bear not having a started backup ready to plant. Send him at least 3 seeds or he won't grow any.

I'll wager that 75% of all seeds started eventually fail to scale.

11/14/2009 5:03:00 PM

Bethel Ohio

Dave. As I have not yet had the problem, or blesing of being overrun with seed request, I have gotten many bubbles for the crosses I made in 09. I shall make every effort to fill as many request as posible. As for myself. I will not, and have not requested seeds from any grower unless I have every intention of growing that seed or seeds. Hoarding seeds only keeps the seeds out of the hands of growers who would love to grow them. My only exception...is...a noted grower sent me the makings (seeds) to re-do a great genetic cross this year, which I shall make every effort to grow next year. Your frustration is understood and I do hope youe dilema eases. Perhaps it is just the cost of being one of the premier growers in the sport. Best wishes...Paul

11/14/2009 6:42:35 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Dave, you are on the top of my list of generous growers list!!! I started out requesting every seed that was listed!!! When I calmed down a lil and started requesting seeds to put up for the KGPG auction, I still got 2 of each!!! One set labled,"for auction" + one set labled "for you"...this is how generous Mr. Stelts is!!!! That being said...I aggree w/ him...takin a free seed, and then trying to sell said seed, or trade it for something is BAD!!! IMHO If you are not gonna plant it, or give it to yer club for auction...then at least offer it back to the original sender!!!Peace, Wayne

11/14/2009 6:54:27 PM

Napa Valley, CA

I agree with Joe Pukos... once you give a seed away, it becomes the property of the receiver.

I don't think a growers should EVER sell another growers seed for personal gain.

If you don't grow a seed that someone sent you within a year or two, GIVE it to someone who wants to grow it, or donate to some pumpkin club for their auction or raffle.

11/15/2009 6:32:14 AM

Joliet, IL

when i mention seed hoarding, i do not mean those protecting the future genetics by hanging on to some of the top notch seeds for longer periods of time. those are more like seed banks. i am only refering to those collecting for collecting sakes. there are some top notch proven seeds in peoples collections that will never see dirt due to treating the seeds like baseball cards. this is what makes me sick. grow it or give it to someone who will before it gets to the 7 or 8 year old mark. hanging on to some seeds for longer periods of time until seeing if they prove out is a sound strategy. but if they have already proved themselves out and are good producers, let them produce before the chances of germination become slimmer to none as time goes on. do not treat them as baseball cards or stamps or coins is my point.

11/15/2009 9:10:21 AM

Rhode Island

group hug for dave stelts

11/15/2009 9:18:28 AM

Joliet, IL

and by the way dave, thanks for putting yourself out on the line with this post. this is the down time of the year, and things like this should be discussed openly with input from as many growers as possible. there are many things out there that can be discussed for the betterment of all. many people prefer not to speak up because they will immediately get slammed on the message board. there are always going to be some responses more opinionated than others. but when you go back and read the etire thread, you get many different points of view that collectively indicate how most people feel. this helps to set some sort of etiquette guidelines that newer growers can understand, especially when more experienced growers like yourself speak up. this hobby/sport has changed a lot in the 8 years since i have started growing. it will continue to evolve and change as it becomes more popular. all subjects or topics that are negative for the sport need to be nipped in the bud before growers start giving up growing because it is no longer fun. i commend you for speaking your mind and i would love to see more topics discussed openly and as civil as possible through out the winter. and the more input from experienced growers and heavy hitters like yourself is what is needed most because you guys have seen the evolution all the way through. your input has strength and merit that many newer growers can get a better understanding of.

11/15/2009 9:47:20 AM

Long Island,New York

Shazz...it would be great if that was true...but what you see on seed threads is the vocal group again. It seems there are many opinions out there that are not expressed in these threads due to fear of being banned/labeled or no longer having access to seeds. Its always been that way in the annual seed request thread.

11/15/2009 11:02:03 AM

Streator ,Illinois

Yours seeds are to do what you want to do with them , no one should expect a seed , but asking for seeds via a letter, e-mail , phone etc... before a bubble is sent is a lot better etiquete , it also gives the grower a better idea the demand for the seeds and with short supply you have rite to pick and choose.
I have been on the sorry I have no seed for you list and it does not hurt and I did not feel no more or no less for the grower.
The seed you hand out is not your seed any more so what happens with it is out of your hands , a lot of people are looking for the next golden seed and that is the bubble mania !

Gene McMullen

11/15/2009 11:08:59 AM

St. Thomas Ontario

25 years ago Howard Dill gave my dad a seed, who in turn gave it to me, what a treat, I grew a 80lb pumpkin and had my dad drive all over Nova Scotia showing it off. Although very much appreciating that first seed given to me, when I filled out my "seed request form" in the years to follow (allong with my 15 or 20 bucks), I felt good about it...and as a 12 year old kid, those seeds were seeing peat pots and potting soil (which also came at a small price)! I think a nominal "handling fee" would weed out the 'collectors', and if we kept a lookout for those wide eyed kids (and kids at heart) who would appreciate a 'gift'...we wouldn't be taking anything away from this great hobby:)

11/15/2009 11:42:42 AM

Sparta, NC

I swap seeds with alot of growers every year. I send them my seeds along with a return bubble w/postage and they send me their seeds in return if they choose to or have enough. Sometimes I don't get the bubble returned but I understand some growers get low seed counts or their seeds are in high demand so no big deal. I rarely ask for a certain seed and when I do it gets planted or at least a germination attempt is made. Remember they are just seeds we all have more than we will ever grow. I always enjoy swapping seeds with other growers because that gives my seed a chance to be grown. I lost all my pumpkins and squash this year so I have no seeds to swap but thats the way it goes sometimes. I have been very fortunate over the years to obtain some real good seeds thru swapping and am very thankful to everyone that swaps seeds with me. Lets all remeber when we 1st started growing and getting those bubbles were great. Each grower can do with their seeds as they choose. I will continue to do my seed swaps with other growers as I have in the past.

11/15/2009 11:59:04 AM

Anchorage, Alaska

Micropropagation will become affordable within a few years and at that time seed shortages will be a thing of the past. Top growers submit a vine tip at seasons end, and the following Spring there is unlimited availability for a nominal fee to grow the exact plant which produced the monster. It will make "cloning" look like childs play.

I tend to believe growers should offer their seeds for a small price. In most cases a person lacking $5.00 or $10.00 to spend on a seed should consider reexamining their priorities. Maybe grow 500lbs jack-o-lanterns until their situation changes. You don't need TOP seeds if you don't have the time or resources to fully utilize their potential.

That being said, I'm thankful the seed exchange is as generous as it is. This should be a fun and rewarding experience for those who choose to take part. People who understand and respect the philosophy should do their part to maintain the harmony for those who don't. Even if it means saying no.

11/15/2009 3:21:24 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

A SASB with full postage on inner bubble and outer envelope, a page of stationary, etc, runs me about $4, with postage and cost of bubble, envelope... I have sent them out and got nothing back; it happens. It's the chance I take. I try to ask first before sending it, and again, I understand if it doesn't come back. I may not be HH but. I always hope to have seeds to share, even if they get handed out to kids at the fair for growing halloweeners. I also put on the extra stamp on the return bubble, so it doesn't cost the grower....

11/16/2009 8:58:10 AM

Alaska

Most folks spend thousands of dollars on pumpkin growing. It cracks me up when folks cry about the cost of good seeds or bad mouth someone that won't give seeds away. Shame on them! Good seeds in the hands of an amateur or someone that just doesn't seem to get it yet ain't gonna break any records. I grew the WR cantaloupe(64.8) from seeds out of a 30 pound cantaloupe. I got the seeds from P&P seeds.
Dave most all folks are very appreciative of free/donated seeds. Those few bad eggs are just that. Cullem and move on.

11/16/2009 3:15:33 PM

Alaska

Dave it's called Capitalism. Some aren't in it for the love of the sport but the for the love of a buck. There are a handful of folks out there that really can't do themselves but write books on how to and sell seeds. I would rather get my info first hand not after some writer has filtered it and added his or her's 2 cents worth. IMHO, Scott.

11/16/2009 3:44:08 PM

Lymington UK

First all thanks Dave for a great post and thanks to all who have written their own posts in return.
In the last few years Stuart and I have sent out seeds and paid for the bubble and postage. I hate to think what it has cost us. Last year we found it really difficult to keep up with the requests and we spent hours bagging up our seeds and sending them out.
After reading all these posts I think from now on if someone wants to plant our seeds and we have seed spare they will be welcome to them
Also we will send our seeds to all the auctions we can to help with fund raising
Over the last few years we have been sent so many seeds it is not true and to be fair we have done seed swaps our selves. All we are doing is giving our money to the post office.
Brooks, you are spot on

11/16/2009 4:05:04 PM

[email protected]

Those who can do. Those who can't, teach. Teachers have merit even if they sell seeds. Remember Howard Dill?

11/16/2009 7:18:53 PM

Alaska

amen!

11/16/2009 9:58:27 PM

Dummer Twp - Ontario

"Fame" comes at a price no matter what your doing. Top growers are "famous" amongst pumpkin growers as they have achieved the top level. People as a whole like to be in the lime light and strive to be number one or we would not be searching for the next big break through to grow the world record. There are some exceptions to this of the growers who likes to share info but does not like to get up at award ceremonies and be centered out - others thrive on it.

So the long and the short of it is if your gonna grow monster pumpkins or the latest orange beauty your gonna have to deal with this so called "Fame" and if people don't like what you do then they will have to make peace on their own level. But if you are one to suck up the "Fame" then the other stuff will always follow you around.

11/17/2009 6:14:52 AM

Team Munson

I thank all of you for your input and will leave this with you on my final thoughts.

If I GIVE you a seed or TRADE seeds to plant you do not have the right to sell it for personal gain. I do not appreciate you getting it to trade for a seed you want to plant but can live with that as you are planting and not making profit.

If you buy a seed then that is an investment and you may do as you see fit whether I like it or not at least a club made profit to start the process.

To trade seeds or acquire seeds just to hoard is as bad a sin as selling good faith seeds for profit. If you are not going to plant seeds get them to a club so they can get them into hands that will. Genetics are worthless if you leave them in your closet. If you haven't planted a seed for 3 years after it came out you are probably not going to plant it.

I no longer trade seeds I only give seeds that will hit the dirt in the coming year. I only do this after I have filled all the requests from the clubs that ask me for seeds. This is still not to say I can fill all requests but do my best to help all growers.

A few years ago my good friend Jack LaRue told me he was going to start this program and would not trade with me. This hurt as we had traded seeds for a very long time, then the more I thought about our conversation the more it made sense. The culture of how we trade and acquire seeds has to change as the sport is ever growing which is a good thing. The bad thing is there are not enough seeds from the bigger fruit to go around thus we need to manage the quantities better. The only way I know presently to make the seeds equally available for all growers is to get to the clubs so they may distribute as they see fit. We all want to have our seeds planted as the best compliment I can get is to have a seed of mine produce a personal best for a grower.

Thanks you for taking time to express your thoughts.
Dave

11/17/2009 9:40:08 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Nice finish, Dave!!! Peace, Wayne

11/18/2009 2:16:50 AM

Hanover,Ontario,Canada

AMEN DAVE AND PAP: I agree and I know my seed box will be thinned down this year to what I expect to plant. I have always worked at crossing the larger weighted genetics of the current past year. I have recently had requests for past crosses as there are some growers who are dedicated to the breeding of a better fruit. signed ole watchamccallum

11/18/2009 3:54:34 PM

Western PA

There are more growers in this hobby, There are also a whole lot more larger fruit grown every year, which means there are more seeds out there with great genetics.

The problem is not trading seeds with people... I think this needs to continue! I personally think the problem of too many seed requests to a particular individual is a direct result of of people jumping on the bandwagon when they hear a seed might be a hot seed.

Just because a BIG NAMED grower grows a monster pumpkin everybody wants that seed. Yet there are probably a few other fruits out there very niced sized with the same cross that don't get the hype because the BIG NAMED growers did not grow them.

if you look at the top 20 pumpkins grown this year, I am willing to bet on it that the lesser known names received minimal seed requests. The same pumpkin grown by a big name would of filled the mail mail box up of that big named grower.

The problem is not trading seed with others, the problem is people not realizing there is more then one way to the same destination.

11/19/2009 9:29:46 PM