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Denver, CO

A very respectible grower (Thanks Joe!) eamiled my yesterday. So I found out yesterday that my idea of using foliar phosphours to enhance early root growth in cold soil will result in mycorrhiza underdeveloping or not developing at all. see:

http://www.coopext.colostate.edu/TRA/PLANTS/index.html#http://www.coopext.colostate.edu/TRA/PLANTS/mycorrhiza.html

However, from lots of reading, it appears the single greatest benefit derived from using Mycorrhiza is increased root development. This occours because the mycorrhiza increase the ability of the plant to take in phosphours.

Put another way, as I understand it, the chief reason for using mycorrhiza is to increas the plants abilty to uptake phosphourus. But it becomes ineffective or unessecary when high levels of phosphorous are present.

So what the heck is going on here? Are we being dupped into using $80.00 a pound mycorrhiza when $2.00 of solable phosphours will do the same thing? Or is there somthing that I am missing here?

Sure would be nice to spend the extra $78.00 on beer if it was possible!

5/13/2009 7:34:18 PM

Denver, CO

OOPS! Wrong forum. Sorry.

5/13/2009 7:34:52 PM

Colorado Springs.Co

Beer expenditure works in every forum. I'd like to know if the expense is worth it as well.

5/13/2009 7:47:44 PM

Ohio

I gotta admit, very interesting read that makes you think a little.
I know our pumpkins have gotten bigger over the years since we have been using it,but is that just genetics playing that part of it? Surly the Mycorrhizae brought us all up a level, right?
I know I get ALOT more roots when I use it then when I dont use it. So that has to help in a lot of ways.

Jerry Rose never started using Mycorrhizae since last year or so, and look at all the big ones he has grown(and even lost) from not using Mycorrhizae . He kept up pretty easy with the guys that was using it.

Maybe its a good idea that Quinn only uses it mostly in his planting hole and not on his main vines so much?

That sure is a interesting read for sure, with some research to back it even.

5/13/2009 8:45:17 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

Interesting....maybe it's good it's in this forum, should get more input.

5/13/2009 10:14:56 PM

Breslau, Ontario, Canada

$80 a pound is more than 10 times what I paid for it. Where are you buying yours?

5/13/2009 11:33:13 PM

Colorado Springs, Co ([email protected])

yeah, 8 bucks a pound is what i paid. now to maybe throw a wrench into the pile. Soil already has myco in it. some soils have more , some have less. Always remember folks, just because the guy down the road has great soil, doesnt mean yours is the same. If a person wants to put more salts into there soil rather than go to these measures we go to, let them do it. a couple of yrs down the road when their soil is loaded with salts, all the solubles in the world arent going to help. Always look beyond the studies and realize whats going to happen in the long run.

5/13/2009 11:47:22 PM

Colorado Springs, Co ([email protected])

Another thing. Myco does spore, you dont HAVE to re-innoculate every yr with 20 pounds of the stuff but we keep doing it because we believe we see the results. you can bet your eye teeth if the myco fungi is growing in your patch its definatley feeding your plants.

5/13/2009 11:50:41 PM

Colorado Springs, Co ([email protected])

p.s.s lol, it did NOT say the chief reason for using it is for P uptake what it said is "
One of the most dramatic EFFECTS of infection by mycorrhizal fungi on the host plant is the increase in phosphorus (P) uptake "
In addition, mycorrhizal infection results in an increase in the uptake of copper (Lambert, Baker & Cole, 1979; Gildon & Tinker, 1983), zinc (Lambert, Baker & Cole, 1979), nickel (Killham & Firestone, 1983), and chloride and sulphate (Buwalda, Stribley & Tinker, 1983). Excess manganese (Mn) in soil is toxic to crops, but arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi may alleviate the toxic effects by affecting the balance between Mn-reducing and Mn-oxidizing microorganisms in the mycorrhizosphere and thus affect the level of extractable Mn in the soil (Nogueira, et al., 2007). Mycorrhizae also are known to reduce problems with pathogens which attack the roots of plants (Gianinazzi-Pearson & Gianinazzi, 1983). LOTS more benefits of MYCO than P uptake. may want to re-read this study ;)

5/13/2009 11:58:18 PM

Colorado Springs, Co ([email protected])

oh, sorry, one more thing, exactly which species of Myco is this study referring?? i didnt see that part? Does this pertain to all species? Not being sarcastic as i am not even the slightest in the expert here. just wondering myself

5/14/2009 12:04:53 AM

Denver, CO

Will, there is a PDF file that you can load at the bottom of the article. It covers all 7 types of Myco, the additional benefits Myco gives us.

But my main question is in reagards to phosphorus uptake, which is the correct approach.

I am just trying to learn.

5/14/2009 1:16:03 AM

Ohio

What has me thinking was the increased yields studies that they talked about on numerous different plants with applied mycorrhizae verses plants that had none applied,,,, the plants with applied mycorrhizae used shown NO increased yields verses the plants where no mycorrhizae was applied.

5/14/2009 6:12:24 AM

Ct

What I don't understand is how would you even know if the spores are actually growing? Do I now need to purchase an electronic myco-spore monitor??

5/14/2009 8:27:12 AM

Colorado Springs, Co ([email protected])

ok, here is something else, trying to read into this thing still. The point they are trying to make i beieve is that the myco is a good thing but that the P levels can cause issues with it. Phosphorus fertilizer
The benefits of AMF are greatest in systems where inputs are low. Heavy usage of phosphorus fertilizer can inhibit mycorrhizal colonization and growth.

As the soil's phosphorus levels available to the plants increases, the amount of phosphorus also increases in the plant's tissues, and carbon drain on the plant by the AM fungi symbiosis become non-beneficial to the plant (Grant 2005).

A decrease in mycorrhizal colonization due to high soil phosphorus levels can lead to plant deficiencies in other micronutrients that have mycorrhizal mediated uptake such as copper (Timmer & Leyden 1980).

5/14/2009 8:53:55 AM

Albert County, New Brunswick,CANADA

Go to chooseavail.com to see what the farmers are using in this respect.I'd like to get a hold of some.I saw this featured on a show for farmers. It is related to phosphorus uptake and is supposed to increase yields yet lower fertilizer costs making nutrients more available to the plants.

5/14/2009 9:16:23 AM

Colorado Springs, Co ([email protected])

Hmmm, now i have myself confused. Where is that dang easy button?
ok, so in essance, its a great thing if your potassium levels are not over 100 ppm, well that means i am peeing in the wind because mine are 171 ppm, does best under 50ppm. If P is over 100 ppm then the Myco becomes more or less parasitic draining carbon from the plant. but also if all this does happen the the plants can be starved of other mycronutrients. I think maybe we need to have an expert come and talk to us in featured growers chat

5/14/2009 9:25:30 AM

Picton,ON ([email protected])

The suppression of Mychorrizal development from phosphorous comes from the water soluble portion. It is possible and not at all uncommon to have very high phosphorous soil tests and a very low water soluble portion. This is almost always the case with high calcium levels and high pH. It is my understanding that this suppression is overemphasized.

Pumpkin-eater, nice link to the Avail web site. I am using this material this year along with the RTI mychorrizal inoculant. I have Avail MAP available if you wanted some I can ship to New Brunswik.

John

5/14/2009 10:07:46 AM

Midway, UT

I wasn't at Niagra but from what I understand the question came up in regards to phosphourous levels over 100ppm and innoculation of myco. From what I'm told the expert stated that over 100ppm the roots inhibit the innoculation. Thad Starr questioned that however because his soil was over 100ppm and his pumpkin of course was 1,528 pounds. I think at the end of the day we will find that myco has many different values to the pumpkin plant but there are limits to its value in certain circumstances. Most all of the studies haven't been done with AGs and what we are being told is conjector for pumpkin plants. I use just a pound per plant and for $8 it isn't such a big investment that I'm to worried about if it is 100% effective or not. With time we will get a better understanding. Would love to hear more people's 2 cents.

5/14/2009 10:49:07 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

http://www.reforest.com/products_overview.php

Good Stuff happening here folks.....check it out....

5/14/2009 1:07:02 PM

john vincent nailed it

5/14/2009 2:27:41 PM

Albert County, New Brunswick,CANADA

John,thanks for the offer.I am surprised that anyone else would be aware of this product. They claim “the most important fertilizer advancement in 30 years.” I'm just learning but seems the deal is that you are coating the phosphorus fertilizer with avail and it helps to make it available,so to say, to the plant,or thats my take on it.Are you a farmer in addition to a pumpkin grower? I doubt I could buy this locally.Expensive I bet. But if you already have phosphorus lock-up, it won't help,I think. If you were handy,I'd take you up on the offer,but I'll wait and see if you have good results from it.Says it is also good for many crops!

5/14/2009 3:08:27 PM

Denver, CO

Ok, so I emailed the professor from Colorado State University and asked him a few questions. CSU is one of the top schools in the nation for agricultural sciences.

He asked me to fax him my soil report which I did.
My Phosphorus is at 263ppm (p1) and 264ppm (p2).

He stated that virtually no development of the Myco would occur at this level. No development will occur (or very limited ) at anything over 100ppm. In fact adding Myco at levels 150ppm or more can cause the Myco to become PARASITIC to the plant. It will actually cause more harm then good! Myco is a fungal infection of the roots. If the infection is not controlled, it will cause damage instead of symbiosis. (He suggested cutting a root or two and sending them to a lab for independent verification of this.)

Under no circumstance would he ever recommend adding soluble phosphorus and myco to the same plant. You would just waste your money. (Exactly what Joe told me to begin with LOL!)

As to non-soluble forms, if the PPM of your soil test are below the 100ppm level, then additions of phosphorus up to 100ppm would be Ok, but not desirable.

Lastly, if we want the full benefits of the Myco AND early season phosphorus uptake, the only method to achieve this is to warm the soil. Plastic sheets, and soil cables are two methods or heated irrigation water. Reduced phosphorus uptake is due to the lack of root growth and elongation in cold soil NOT due to the lack of P when the soil test shows an adequate supply of P

Not coincidently, these are all things many heavy hitter growers already do, whether they knew why it worked or not.

5/14/2009 7:11:01 PM

Denver, CO

So in summary Dr. Swift's opinions are:

Do not use Myco if the phosphorus is already over 100ppm.

If using Myco, warm the soil in any manner possible to get phosphorus available to roots in early season. Using soluble phosphorus will NOT work when myco is used as well and will in fact likely cause a parasitic environment.

If not using Myco, soluble phosphorus is a good way to make it available to roots in cold soil.

Lastly, Dr. Swift is of the opinion that Myco has many beneficial qualities and should be incorporated when possible into our growing regimes if possible. BUT, to reiterate, it will do more harm then good if used in soils with 100ppm or greater phosphorus.

My final step will be to email RTI and see if they agree with this or if there is another opinon out there. I want to be sure to get all sides of the equation.

Yikes! I need that beer money more then ever now!

5/14/2009 7:11:22 PM

Picton,ON ([email protected])

There has been lots of testing with mychorrizal inoculant products to show that colonization can occur with P levels much higher than 100ppm and that a you can get a response. I have seen this in my patch. I have seen it in other patches. You have to remember that 1st off we are using species of Mychorria that have been specifically identified to work on AG's and that the Universities are looking at commercial field condition data. We are doing things here that have never been and will never be duplicated under university conditions.

Russ Laundry and myself spent several hours with Dr. Linderman at the 2008 Niagara conference, discussing this very topic. Dr. Linderman did his PHD thesis on Mychorria and is one of the foremost authorities in the US on the subject. He would disagree with most of what your Dr Swift has told you. As i said earlier, the inhibition of the colonization comes from the water soluble portion of the phosphorous and has no correlation whatsoever to the base soil test. I discuss this topic with the agronomist at A&L labs in London Ontario, earlier this spring. He tells me that there is a separate test for water soluble phosphorous that they can do if requested. Dr. Linderman did give us a ppm threshold for the water soluble portion but I can't remember that number right now. Anyway, the conclusion was that in most soils the water soluble portion is very rarely high enough to inhibit mychorrizal formation.

5/14/2009 8:52:36 PM

Picton,ON ([email protected])

Pumpkin-eater

I work for a farm supply co-operative and am a certified crops advisor. We sell fertilizer products and I have a small amount of the avail map in stock. It would cost you about .75 cents a pound plus shipping to NB. If interested send me an e-mail.

We are also using an inoculant called JumpStart. This contains a mychorizal like fungus that colonizes the plants roots in a similar manner. The difference with this stuff is that it specifically targets phosphorous. What is does is release organic acids that break the bond formed in the soil between calcium and the phosphorous, making it unavailable.

This product is not for sale yet for horticultural use. I secured a limited supply and made it available at the spring GVGO seminar as door prizes

http://bioag.novozymes.com/images/file/MktDen-NZB_JS_AllCropsFactSheet-Final.pdf

5/14/2009 9:07:35 PM

Albert County, New Brunswick,CANADA

Thanks John. I just realized I've got a local buddy who might have access to this.Thanks Peter

5/15/2009 7:23:31 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

Here is a useful link on Phosphorus.....Great Read Greg...

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC6795.html

5/15/2009 2:11:14 PM

[email protected]

Another wrench...LOL

MAP is the most desirable source of P but a plant with ample P will shrug off (kill) mycorrhizae. So...

A good option is P solubilizing rhizobacteria...

Another is utilizing lipoproteins on good organic meals that will make native (read most efficient) mycorrhizae flourish...

Or purchase a TRUE foliar fertilizer such as made by Grigg Brothers. They mill the ingredients to the point each element can sneak in through the stomata. Then the select the ideal organic chelator for each element for maximum uptake...

There is no perfect way to meet the nutrient needs of AGs but as the record books demonstrate things keep getting better.

5/16/2009 12:56:39 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

Well said Tremor!

5/16/2009 10:01:46 AM