From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Cornelius, Oregon

As a former heavy hitter, I'll throw put my foot in the ring. Lets go over loosening of soil. Pap, Ron, other HH's what do you use to start a new site in loosening the soil? This may benefit those newbies....
Personally, I go with pumice rock. I love the way it loosens the soil, but it also increases drainage AND increases the soils ability to maintain a more constant moisture content. I will also use some sand and gypsum.

3/3/2009 11:45:04 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

We want to use a sub soiler but we can not find one to rent so we will purchase one this fall. Then we will need a tractor to pull it 18" underneath the surface thru Colorado Clay.....I think this would greatly benefit us.

3/3/2009 12:13:27 PM

Ohio

WIZ, make one Bro, I made one and had it welded to the ball hitch the fits on the back of my four wheeler(make it so he bar tilts up and down and locks in place). Its just a single bar sub soiler but it works good enough .

3/3/2009 12:28:00 PM

[email protected]

WiZ, if you know someone with a backhoe, they work really good also, just make sure they dont turn the soil over, only loosen it.
Now that EXTREME GARDENING, Tilling with a backhoe

3/3/2009 12:36:47 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

When you say pumice rock, what exactly is this product?

I'm looking at a "sharp sand" that I can get locally. This is NOT beach sand... it has larger particles, and the edges are "sharper" (for lack of a better term) so that they don't clump as much.

I've been thinking about this all winter, if I should add some of this to my silty soil. At least, to one of my growing sites.

Thanks for the worthwhile discussion!!

3/3/2009 1:12:03 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Brett, once a heavy hitter, always a heavy hitter!

3/3/2009 1:15:00 PM

Santa Rosa, CA

Brett,

Thank you for a "worthwhile" post after so much "ginatjack" stuff.

In answer to Cliff's question, in California, we have a similar product called volcanic rock. It can be ordered in sizes from 1/8" to 3/4".

Most seed starting mixes have tiny pieces of pumice rock in them. Some of the soil mixes we get have the volcanic rock mixed in them too.

It is a great way to loosen the soil.

Chuck

3/3/2009 1:37:31 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Yeah, I think this sharp sand I'm looking at is much smaller than 1/8", it's just "large sand".

3/3/2009 1:47:33 PM

Lloydminster/AB

perlite http://www.perlite.net/ Most hort places carry it in bulk bags. That and some peat moss works wonders.

3/3/2009 1:52:10 PM

[email protected]

Does peat moss change your PH levels at all?

3/3/2009 2:57:41 PM

Ohio

Perlite and Pumic rock the same, or no?

3/3/2009 3:01:18 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

Eddy... I did that this year; had the backhoe dig for me last fall when the stumps came out. Nothing else was going through this adobe or going to touch the hardpan. Only $75 an hour to watch him play....

If I had open turf instead of a closed backyard, a real tractor and subsoiler would be the way to go.

3/3/2009 3:50:27 PM

They're different, Brooks. Perlite (what you get in a bag at the nursery) is a processed material - expanded perlite, while pumice is a raw material.

http://www.perlite.org/product_guides/1%20Basic%20Facts%20about%20Perlite.pdf

Expanded perlite has a lower bulk density than pumice. That being said, expanded perlite is more prone to crushing forces than pumice (although, pumice is not immune to crushing, either), so the long-term effects of pumice may be better in terms of tilth than perlite.

And of course, perlite costs a bit more than pumice (at least out here in volcanoland).

3/3/2009 3:56:19 PM

milford, CT,

I Broadfork the whole patch..serious workout!!!!
Broadfork= longtined (10-14") Pitchfork, Has a t-handle
I dont't turn it over just fracture the hardpan underneath where I till. Same Idea as a subsoiler..just uses human horsepower. I am lucky..my patch is only 900 sq ft. Mark

3/3/2009 4:18:18 PM

Christine, yes native peat moss will lower your pH. A lot of the peat moss now available in common bales is pH adjusted to neutral.

3/3/2009 4:27:31 PM

Denver, CO

So what would be a good ratio to 100 sq/yards for Pumice Rock or for Perlite? For Clay soil and for Sandy soil maybe one suggestion for inbetween these two.
Thanks!

3/3/2009 4:50:29 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

For our good old willamette valley loam-sandly loam, I go one pickup load per 30 x 30 site. By pickup load I mean heaping pickup load and then till it in as deep as I can till, and yes my front tine hand tiller has extra tines spliced onto the sides for a wider swath and the safety guard removed so I bury it to the engine and push it around so you can't even see the tines in the soil while its tilling. I also put on a smaller pulley so it turns even faster. its a beast.

3/3/2009 5:19:10 PM

Hot West Tennessee

Is espoma soil perfector the same as pumace rock? Hope it
works, can get it wholesell. going to try it on part of patch.
My kubota bx23 backhoe/loader and I are taking on my new part of patch asap. Kreig

3/3/2009 7:09:05 PM

Northern Cambria, Pa.

Organic material such as mulched leaves may be about the best additive to your soil to keep it loose while also maintaining the nutrition of the soil. I have also used gypsum over the years with limited success but it may eventually get your Ca level up too high. OM really makes a big difference.

3/3/2009 8:34:11 PM

Youngstown, Ohio

What about adding crushed limestone say around a little smaller than # 8 slag? I can get this from a local quarry.

3/4/2009 7:41:28 AM

The epsoma sounds more similar to perlite than pumice, although the info on it from the manufacturer's website indicates (surprise!) that the soil perfector won't break down like other additives, cures male pattern baldness, etc.

I wouldn't dump a bunch of limestone on my patch without analyses of both my soil chemistry and of the crushed limestone.

Brett - one heaped pickup load - about 2.5 - 3.0 yards? Or do you take into account getting stuck in the patch before loading down the pickup?

3/4/2009 11:24:15 AM

Cornelius, Oregon

Neal,
I always take into account getting stuck..LOL. Probably about 3 yards. You know me, if it says 1/2 ton that means I can carry at least 5000 pounds in the bed.

3/4/2009 11:29:51 AM

You should test it out in my patch first. If you get stuck, we'll unload your pumice and I'll pull you out with the tractor. We may need to repeat this test a couple times.

You buy the pumice, and I'll provide the tractor and tow strap.

3/4/2009 11:35:06 AM

Gold Hill, Oregon

here in oregon pumice is a natural porous volcanic stone that is light wheight. crushed to 1/2 inch or smaller. not sure of the ph. was told that it is good for drainage by others. it is very abundandt around crater lake.

3/9/2009 2:20:19 AM