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[email protected]

This is in regards to selling seeds, How times have changed, Is it good or is it bad, I'd like to see a heart felt dialogue on this from all growers, new and old.
I remember the chastizing of the grower when Ernie Pierce did this 3 or 4 years ago, Now we get 2 or 3 negatives and people lining up to buy, BUT, with ananimity, Nobody wants to be known, this will change.
Once a grower sends out his seeds, they are no longer his, Now is that a fair statement. I believe that to be the case.
Why is it OK to sell seeds you bought, but can't sell seeds you have bubbled for?
Why, when I bought a collection (I won't rename the person) but you all know who it is, I never had one bad word said to me, But had over 60 emails about getting seeds from the collection, for money.
So why is it OK for some and not others??
This is part of the evolution of Pumpkin growing, and we will see in the not too distant future that bubbles in mass mailings will end and club sales will be the only way to get seeds. Is this good or bad???
Please be civil in your responses, so we can all learn from this.
Eddy

2/2/2009 11:14:05 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

You are right on Eddy. There are actually two things going on. First off should a seed be returned because the grower asked for it back? The second, is it OK to sell seeds. In this scenario, the seeds weren't originally obtained with the intent for profit. Now that he has fallen on hard times, the seller is trying to make ends meet and I'm not in a position to judge. If any of the seeds were purchased at auction then it's his business. If not, then maybe the seed(s) should be returned IF the grower makes such a request. Hopefully none of us will ever be in his position. As good as some of the seeds are, even the 1068, it's still just a seed. I would sell a drawer full of 1068's if it meant helping a friend get on his feet. Thanks.

2/2/2009 12:04:13 PM

Saegertown Pa.

I get 100's of bubbles every year, it cost me money to send them out. I buy labels, I buy envelopes to put them in and the list goes' on. The out of country bubbles I get I have to go to the post office and stand in line to mail. I have stood in line for over a half hour just to get waited on and then got dirty looks because it took 20 minutes for the post man to do 15 out of country bubbles, and I do this 6 or more times a year. Other than the two to five dollars I ask to be sent for postage for out of country bubbles, I do this for free. The bubbles I get from my own country all I ask is to put postage on a self address bubble, a lot of times there is no postage or not enough postage, and I could go on. I swap seeds with about 20 growers that I pay to send my seeds and they pay to send me there seeds. And I will say it again other than the 20 growers I swap with I do this for free. ( And I do this because I won't to ), even though it can be a pain in the ass some times. If I send someone my seeds then yes I am giving them to them, but I didn't charge them for my seeds. If they don't won't them anymore that they should give them away or better yet give them to a club. The seeds I send to clubs for auctions are sold and if you pay money for them then I don't have a problem with you selling them to get your money back.

2/2/2009 12:46:20 PM

Nova Scotia Canada/[email protected]

Great post ive often wondered what it must be like for people like Quinn ,Don the wallaces and so on the number of bubbles must be crazy at times .thxs you guys and everyone for taking the time to do this .Theres a great feeling to open the mail box and see a buble full of goodies .It would indeed be a shame if the generousity had to come to come to a end .I personally think people watch auctions and get the idea of wow i can sell seeds i have obtained and make a few dollars .Auctions are for the benifits of clubs and there members weigh offs etc ,Selling seeds tht were given to you is selfish wrong and disrespectfull to the grower who sent them to you in my personal opinion

2/2/2009 1:18:34 PM

Murfreesboro, TN, USA

This is a very interesting topic and can be taken in many different directions. I honestly feel if you buy a seed then you should be able to sell that seed. Not to make a profit, but to recoup your original cost and no more. Let’s face it; good seed is expensive especially if you are a-nobody like I am in this sport/hobby. I saw one seed go for $550 dollars in and auction over a week ago. There is no way I could spend this kind of money on one seed.

As for bubbles, honestly, I don't think I could send a bubble to a well known grower and ask for their seed, just because I realize that clubs use these seeds to fund their clubs. If I did ask for a seed, I would ensure that the bubble had plenty of postage to get back to me. I would not want the grower to have to put any of their money in. It is just not fair to that grower. On the other hand, how do you provide the stats that a seed is proven, you have to be able to give some seed away in hopes that it does see dirt and that you will eventually get some feedback as to what was grown with it. I honestly do not see the world of bubbles being eliminated. If any of the seeds that were donated to me, I would not try to sell to make money. I would either try to find a way to contact the grower to see if they would want them back or send them to my club or a club to be redistributed among active growers.

2/2/2009 1:34:28 PM

Murfreesboro, TN, USA

Back to the main topic, if I decided to get out of the sport today, I would probably give my seed to the club I belong too. That would be the seed that may be worth something to someone. As for my personal seed, I would just give it away. This hobby is more than just seed to me. It is the ability to have my kids get involved in growing and nurturing a plant from a seed to eventually a prize winning giant pumpkin. There is just so much more to it. There is the science, education, family time, and the incredible sense of community among growers that are all after the same thing. But I have to say, to give up on a sport and try to sell your stuff for a massive amount of money is just insulting.

2/2/2009 1:34:35 PM

Nova Scotia

My only concern would be a grower or a club violating trademarks, copyrights and federal seed labelling laws. If I recall, someone recently proposed the idea of their club selling seed in a store. To sell seeds - the variety has to be labelled so first you have to make sure you are not infringing on someone else's rights. Next, there's income tax issues. I know there have been legal cases in the past where people have "illegally" re-named varieties and got caught. One year, I sold a counter display of our Atlantic Giant seed to a store in a certain US state and a Federal Seed Inspector showed up and said they could not sell our seed because there was no lot number on the packets! I had documents to verify and fax to them and to get them through, they wrote the lot # on each packet. Not only do the US and Canada have seed laws, but some States, Provinces, etc. even have their own laws.
What goes on between growers (private) is their business. I guess I am trying to shed some light on this subject when it goes public - and I suppose our pumpkin web sites are public. I would hope all of our giant pumpkin clubs are registered as non-profit societies and submit their yearly returns.
As for ebay, it's a battle I went at them, and do not have the dollars nor time to fight them over someone selling AG seeds for $1.99. Anyway, it is a subject well worth bringing up this time of the year and get some feed back, ideas, etc. Good post Eddy! Danny

2/2/2009 2:12:08 PM

Taylorsville, California

I would like to start by saying that I am going thru a divorce right now and understand the position Carlos finds himself in, I am, as of right now over 4,000$ behind on my mortgage payments and looking for every possible way to save my home for me and my 3 children. I have been growing 3 years now and have been very fortunate to meet great people on this site and acquire some great seeds from extrordinarily generous growers, amongst them the 1041 McKie. I feel like a kid on christmas everytime i see that orange of a bubble in my mailbox,and I just hope that the selling of seeds by a few dosn't make these growers less likely to send seeds out to those of us that value the seeds, not monetarily but as a gift similar to an X-mas or B-day present. No judgement here, just my personal belief, I wouldn't sell a birthday present my dad gave me no matter how valuable and how dire my circumstance, and I wouldn't sell that 1041 McKie or the 1142 Van Kooten Jake sent me, just wouldn't make me feel right.
Auston

2/2/2009 2:22:32 PM

Taylorsville, California

I just hope this dosn't negatively affect the hobby and the bubble trade. This season I've sent out 50+ bubbles after being featured in the local paper for a new county record and offering free seeds. I see the effort growers make to send seeds out for free. Ive been offered money but remember offering other growers money and being told just send a SASBE, so I accepted no money myself. The generosity of the Van Hooks, LaRues,Wallaces, McKies,Wolf, Bowles' and many others is a wonderful thing in our hobby and is inspiring not only in the garden but in life as well. Thank you all, you are great role models, your generosity is not taken for granted.
Auston

2/2/2009 2:35:49 PM

[email protected]

Really good stuff here,
Danny brings up a very valid point, Are all clubs registered? Should they be to sell seeds or even hold an auction or raffle?
One of the main reasons I brought this up, "In a Public Forum", is, everytime, this happens, and there is less resistance, it will happen more frequently.
The more it happens, the more we open up to fraud, PLEASE, I am not implicating anything, but it's a reality.

2/2/2009 3:05:41 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

I walk a grey line here too. I've had *many* kind gifts of seed; and put most of them into the club seedbank... we're trying to get on our feet yet... but. I know a number of the generously stuffed bubbles I've gotten were gifts to the club as well as me; and they're being treated as club property. I get first pick, but. A lot of those generous gifts will see dirt if I have any ability to, maybe not in my patch but where I can watch someone whup my heinie.

A gift is a gift, it might be carefully parted with, found a better home (such as some greenies that need to see dirt and probably won't here--and I am sure the giver will understand I'd rather they get a chance to be grown![those 848*crosses however are ANOTHER matter!]).

Sales? What we grow is ours to do with as we like. Unless a seed was given/donated for auction; it shouldn't be sold unless there's a dire strait. I talk of the club holding first auction in 09-10 winter; when we finally hopefully have 'grown our own'.

Growers give. Costs of bubbles [I figured a SASB pack costs me just under $4 with postage, supplies, tax] aren't cheap either. I shoulder that if I ask and am told to send the SASB, and include enough postage for 'overkill' (too big, too thick, and weighs about at capacity of a #0) That's both courtesy and respect; the return is ready to go, written out and stamped with enough. Overseas I included something else, paid the ship to, and expect the return to be handled in return...

My seed isn't HH yet, but I tried to share anyway; a few other clubs were given some all packed, for their promos.

2/2/2009 3:25:08 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

Moral: Respect other growers; ask first and be gracious if it doesn't happen anyway; if it's a gift, it's a gift; if it's a donation for fundraising, then it's legal to auction; courtesy is to add another stamp to the bubble (at moment on a #0, is $1.00 for two ounces and oversize over thick) or something else if it's to another country.
'Bought' is a fundraiser, 'given' is a gift. Let's keep this a gentleman's (and gentlewoman's) hobby/ obssession/ sport/ pasttime

2/2/2009 3:25:20 PM

Marion,IN

I think it's a bad idea to sell the seeds you received. When someone publicly sells a highly sought after seed that was give to them by a HH, all that does is make it difficult for the up and coming average grower to obtain seeds from the HH. Noone wants to give something away for free then to find out it was sold on E-bay for X amount of dollars. This hobby is based on integrity, when I'm given a 1370 out of generosity, I take it for granted it's the real deal. I believe the person needs to do the right thing and return all seeds to original grower or give to your local club. I think this hobby is headed in the wrong direction if the selling of seeds continues. Please think of the hobby as "we" and not as "me". Mark Goodman

2/2/2009 4:26:01 PM

Rhode Island

personally this is my opinion.
if i have a situation where by the selling of valuable seeds collected will help me or my families finances? id do it in a heart beat. but ------ only after asking the growers permission who gave me the seeds to begin with.

nothing wrong with free enterprize so long as you include the permission of those who supplied them to you.

if the seeds are from your own pumpkin or from purchases you made or trades you have made? you dont owe anyone an explaination.

2/2/2009 6:32:53 PM

Dillsburg, PA

Back 8-9 years ago it was possible to get great seeds here on the site. They had a pull down menu of what seeds were available from growers. I was not aware of any auctions or selling of seeds at that time. Now certain seeds have become real popular and we have many growers on the site that I call "collectors". They collect seeds like a kid collects baseball cards. And a grower such as myself only trys to request seeds that I am going to plant. The only way for me to get a seed I am interested in is to spend $$$ at an auction. So that is what I am doing this year.

2/2/2009 7:02:09 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Anyone who knows me, knows that I don't agree with selling seeds that were given to me, it doesnt make a different if it is 1068, sought after or not.
I do however feel that as a community we should help out one of our own in a difficult time, its been done in the past. I offered to help Carlos out because what I know of him, I've been told he was a good guy.
I don't need to be reminded that it wasnt to support a club, we all understood that from Carlos post.
I like to help people out when I can.

2/2/2009 7:19:39 PM

Eastern Washington State

MTAs (Material Transfer Agreements) are a possible solution if the situation gets really intolerable. Sigh.

Or it's still a small enough AG world that we could police ourselves based on reputation. Come up with a 'Giant pumpkin growers' code of ethics" as a guideline for those of us without a moral compass. Growers could number the individual seeds from a given pumpkin to try for a measure of traceability to see who the rats are.

2/2/2009 7:26:11 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Tom..... I think most of us feel the same as you. This isn't a fly by night douchebag trying to make a quick buck. He is one of us. God forbid any of us should find ourselves in his shoes. At the pearly gates St. Peter won't give a rat's ___ who grew the biggest pumpkin.

2/2/2009 9:20:25 PM

Lloydminster/AB

I'd sell my soul first. I would never want seeds from a pumpkin that was grown from seeds that were obtained in a sale between private individuals. The potential for fraud is immense. We rely on the honesty of growers to supply reliable information on the genetics of their fruit. Maybe someone will find a couple of extra 1068's in their jar. Now we have to spend time verifying seeds and then whole lines. No good can come from this. Call me a cynic but I know there are a lot of dishonest people that will take advantage of this.

2/2/2009 9:48:36 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Don don't the seeds you get from an auction come from individuals?

2/2/2009 10:05:01 PM

Sparta, NC

I swap seeds wtih alot of growers each year and I would never sell any of them. I don't agree with the selling of seeds by individuals. I think what may happen will be like what Eddy said. Seed swapping come to an end and the only way to get the highly sought after seeds will be thru a club seed sale, auction, raffle or seed distrobution. I would like to see the seed swapping/request part of our hobby stay the way it is. Remember how you felt the 1st time you recieved a bubble?

2/2/2009 10:13:48 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

Personally, I do have a giant vegetable seed company. Yes, I do sell the Atlantic Giant Variety (Thank You for the go ahead Danny), but I would never sell a seed that another grower has given to me, on some level, it's just unethical.
I still believe in trading seeds to anyone who asks for them. I was in this when but a few growers worldwide grew giant pumpkins. It was the generosity of those few growers that got me hooked on this hobby and I feel it is my part to do the same to the newbies of today. When someone sends me a bubble pack, I put seeds in it. I have yet to leave a bubble pack unfilled whether or not there is a 'please' on a note or a hundred bucks in the request. I do not have enough seeds to give everyone one or two of each, but when a new grower opens a Hester pack they are usually happy.
Long and the short, Don't sell someone else's seeds, if someone wants to trade seeds with you, just do it. The more growers, the better the hobby.

2/2/2009 11:03:55 PM

Colorado

We have to remember that a lot of the value paid for seeds is because that money goes to a charity of sorts(clubs,organizations etc)to help the hobby.When a indivigual sells his seed collection -those seeds shouldnt fetch auction prices.Indiviguals selling seeds that were given to them is wrong.Buying those same seeds is just as wrong.Both acts spit in the face of the hobby and the good will of the growers that gave the seeds away.

2/3/2009 2:01:33 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

I agree and can relate to what everyone is saying.
I feel that this is a very particular situation, I don't know how I can feel totally against the selling of seeds, but I feel strong about this, Carlos didnt try to hide the fact, nor did he collect seeds for the years that he hasn't grown, like I've seen others do.
When all the dust settles, I feel that this is more about helping a fellow grower in a tough spot.
I have no vested interested in this with the exception of:
If we start sending seeds to ONLY those who are going to plant them, this will drive the value of a seed up even more.
I can't agree with more with Sam, remember how you felt when you opened your first bubble?
I remember a few months ago, I was real busy, I didnt get on BP for a few weeks, a couple of my good friends told people I was in jail....lol, a few growers suggested doing something to get money together for my family.....this is the same kind of spirit I felt when I read Carlos post.
I read it as a grower that needed help, not a grower that was trying to profit, fake or pass along bad seeds in anyway, he was looking at the community for help.
Most of the big name growers that he mention mark and keep track of the seeds they send out on a yearly basis.

2/3/2009 6:52:45 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

I like the idea of establishing a "Grower's Code of Ethics".

I tend to over-analyze things, so don't freak out...

It might even be "healthy" to establish a base price for some seeds... LESS THAN $10. Probably less than $5. Let me explain.

If a top grower were to say, "All of seed X are going for $3 each, and all of seed Y are $2 each, limit two per order. Send me your bubbles." That would get the seeds into the hands of those who want to grow them, and discourage seed collectors. It would also make things a little more palatable for the grower who is now probably going through the labor of numbering the seeds. The grower would hold out a stash for himself, and another stash for the club.

Yes, it's noble to say, "My seeds will always be free to whoever asks for one." I really do think that is an admirable policy. But if we could get over the stigma of selling seeds at reasonable prices... I'm saying that there is an economic solution to most everything.

Auctions... Seeds go for $$$ and there is probably no stopping that as long as people have extra money to spend. When it comes to auctions, I just say to myself, it's going to a club. I think it's unwise to spend $$$ (double or triple digits) for a seed, not at an auction, unless you really know the person!

Meanwhile, new and less well known growers who want their seeds to see dirt should plant their own. They can also "flood the market" by offering their seed for free.

2/3/2009 11:34:19 AM

Johnstown, Ohio

I long for the good old days when there was still a PVP on seeds, and only a handful of people were allowed to sell them. The clubs needed to have permission from the Dills to hold each auction. But everyone was still able to freely trade their seeds. I wish we still leved in that world.

Siince we don't, we need to carry on in that spirit. It really is that spirit that makes growing these things so much fun. I know i always have a hard time figuring out what to plant, just because there are so many good seeds out there. I have never bought a seed because of that, but I have donated good seeds for group auctions. There have also been auctions to help out fellow growers...some of you may remember Barb fron Florida. It is that kind of comaraderiw and compassion that makes pumpkin growers one of the best groups of people I have ever known...better than most church groups.

2/3/2009 11:56:58 PM

Johnstown, Ohio

Sorry about the spelling errors...it usually bothers me that people have so many, then I end up typing like this (lol).

Anyway, I agree with so many here that if you receive a seed for free, you have no right to sell it for your own personal gain. If you are on hard times, the pumpkin community will support you and help you, but you must be willing to ask for that help or risk being labeled. I think a 'code of ethics' already exists for us pumpkin growers, maybe it just needs to be written down for some to really think about it.

2/4/2009 12:01:17 AM

Team Munson

Selling seeds that were given to you is WRONG, try and justify it all you want but the bottom line is it's WRONG.

A) Seeds are given to grow not to make personal profit no matter how bad a hand life deals you.

B) Clubs need the seeds to better educate the growers, fund weigh-offs, have tours, etc... and selling for personal profit affects auction prices.

c) If people pick up that selling seeds is a quick way to make a buck who is going to going to check for validity of the seeds? If bogus seeds get into the genetic system then we can throw family trees out the window. The damaged caused by this alone could be catastrophic canceling years of hard work by many growers.

D) Continued practices of this will drive the producers of the more sought after seeds to close their doors to individual seed requests. The only option then will be to buy seeds from the clubs. If you choose to "invest" in seeds at that point for monetary gain then that is your prerogative.

Answer: If an individual is selling seeds for personal profit don't buy them, don't bid on them, just let them go no matter how good of a deal it seems like. Remember the old adage "If it looks to good to be true it normally is" so DO NOT patronize an individual selling seeds no matter how good you THINK you know them.

Integrity is every thing and once you have lost it you will never get it back completely no matter how hard you may try.

2/4/2009 9:14:19 AM

bliss,n.y.- heart of Wyoming County

Dave..I agree. Pumpkin growers are very generous to others seeking seed. Selling seeds privately would destroy the friendly generosity of the growers.
Iam not a heavy hitter.. but Iam proud to grow seeds from the heavy hitters. They all have been very kind and generous to me. Think of it.. a simple note.. a stamped bubble and anyone willing to work the earth can get into this hobby..passion.
A seed and a dream..
My thanks to all the generous growers out there.
You are truly a great group of people.
Bill P

2/4/2009 9:55:41 AM

Thuringia/Germany

Well spoken Dave.
I myself will never sell a Seed, for my welfare!
I estimate every Seed of the planters as if it was a child of me!
At this point, to all planters big thanks, for the support and supply of the precious Seeds.

2/4/2009 2:11:52 PM

Valley Falls, Kansas

Same with virginity! Dave :) sorry I had to...

2/4/2009 4:10:05 PM

Lloydminster/AB

Dave's post should be on the home page. Well said!

2/4/2009 7:41:09 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

Exellent idea Don.

2/4/2009 8:24:59 PM

Newmarket, NH USA

I agree with Brett I am one of those guys who use to be a collector I had thousands of different seeds and many real good ones. I grew many of the good ones and gave many away to my close friends. I also donated a pile of them to our club when we first got started for raffles and auctions. I dont collect anymore because it is not the thing to do any more I sent out 5 bubbles this year and that will be it. I just cant see myself selling seeds that nice growers are willing to give me I just wont do it.

2/4/2009 9:02:58 PM