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Ohio

I was just looking at the top 11 pumpkins grown on the GPC site, and all 11 pumpkins was grown from a different mother seed,, It just Amazes me how far this hobby has gone in just the last 5 years or so. Seems like back then if you didn't have a 723 Bobier you couldn't grow the extra big giant pumpkin.

Today's seeds have really advanced in just that short period of time and now there is alot more great to choose from. Everyone will still have their favorites that they will want to grow, but now more then ever it seems like any seed out there grown in the right soil has a better chance then any to go huge and to a competitive size.

What do you guys see in the future as alot more growers are growing, and more and more seeds progress and us having more choices of what to grow? Do you think anything will change in the future for seed auctions like making them NOT as popular , or do you think it will stay the same?

12/1/2008 8:59:24 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I think it's really a case of advanced growing techniques and soil biology than the seeds. As Jake van Kooten put it;

"I believe that if you research the genetics of your seed, and you find that the 723, 845, 935 with perhaps a touch of Knauss, is dominant, you probably have a winner and you should really be planting that seed."
The best seed in the world won't do squat in crappy soil and/or conditions.

12/1/2008 9:13:14 PM

Greencastle, PA

Growing techniques are the main reason for increasing weights. The the 723 had the genes to break 1400 back in 99/00 and the 1142 had the genes to break 1500 many years ago too. However, it took longer to break those barriers. Obviously, the genes of the 723 Bobier didn't change between 2000 and 2005, yet the weight of its offspring increased. Since the genetics remained constant, we must attribute the increase in weight to some other factor(s).

12/1/2008 9:42:24 PM

[email protected]

I think to prove Brooks point all heavy hitters need to put my 919 in the soil and show them that it isnt the seed, but is the prep and knowledge! I challenge all heavy hitters to put one of my 919's in and grow the world record on it!

(SHameless promo to get heavy hitters to try one of my seeds! )

12/1/2008 11:08:33 PM

Puyallup, WA

Rock...You could put up $50,000 for the largest pumpkin grown in 2009 off the 919.....and I guarantee that some "heavy hitters" would take you up on that challenge!

12/1/2008 11:29:04 PM

Ohio

Your right Andy, plant any seed with those genetics in it and 1000 lbs should be easier to grow now then it was, say back 5 years ago.
Things like Mycorrhizal,humic acid has also taken pumpkins to bigger sizes.

I do know of one HH that has never used mycorrhizal at all up until this year and thats Jerry Rose, he told me in Niagara last year that this year was going to be the first time he has ever used it, and look how many whoppers he grew in the high 14's this year, now I haven't talk to him since then, but he still might not have used Mycorrhizal this year, Im just guessing he has because he told me he was going to try it this year).
But, if you look back on what Jerry has grown he really isnt far away from his weights before he started using Mycorrhizal this year, it just looks like he may have grown more consistent pumpkins at high weights this year . But, when you look at genetics he has grown like the 723 and his 1370, he did grow that seed alot and has grown it big most every year since that seed came out.

Rock, give Quinn, Jake or Ron a couple of your 919's and I would almost bet the house they would grow one in the high 14's or higher 70 percent of the time. But I think the key factor is do they want to take that 30% chance that its going to be a dud? I think patch space plays a key roll in trying just any seed, since this is a competition hobby they/we are going to grow the sure seed because of the big money they have in their soil and big money they can win. But, thats a big reason why I think a lot of seeds haven't even been tried yet because of chance, and also because them HH's want to win weigh offs and grow pumpkins they know can reach them world record sizes.

12/2/2008 4:43:11 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Brooks,

You've touched on an observation that is very important. I always thought we'd come to a day with a statistic like you cited would be the case. If we believe that genetics matter (to some degree) then all of the seeds out there, really aren't that different. Look at their backgrounds! Or looking at it another way, we've made so many good seeds, we can't possibly plant them all. I also agree with the notion that techniques by the HH'ers has continued to improve.

Is there another seed like the 898 out there? Good question.

12/2/2008 9:22:16 AM

So there is agreement here that the newer techniques have improved overall weights, even on existing genetics. What will it take to get to the next level? Meaning the illusive 1 ton fruit? I think that will be reached with someone hitting a perfect weather year and a new "tweak" in the genetics used, i.e. a fruit with thick walls and no flaws that are inherent in some of todays crosses.

Has that cross been made? What will that be? Only way to find out is to grow a few of the "unprovens" every year to see what they hold.

Make note that most HH's do allow a certain percentage of thier valuable patch and time each season growing a few tempting new seeds.

Grow your own and don't look back is my philosophy, if you researched and believed in the cross enough to make it you owe it to yourself to test it.

12/2/2008 9:42:33 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Every year for the past, what, 20 years, haven't we had a new world record?

Then 2008, and like so many other things... it didn't happen.

I used to think that 2000 was coming within five years. Now, maybe it will take another ten or twenty? Unless we find some new silver bullets, it may take a while.

12/2/2008 11:36:49 AM

Knopp, Germany

look at the crosses that have grown the big ones. find the seeds out there that have the same crosses. those are the seeds you should plant. you will probably find the same genetics (ok, every cross is not a winner, but i think you understand) for pennies, compared to auction prices.

i think, (therefor i am) a lot of growers grow seeds because of the growers they get them from plus the cross. so many winners out there.

i like unka's sentence the best from this whole thread:

"Grow your own and don't look back is my philosophy, if you researched and believed in the cross enough to make it you owe it to yourself to test it."

12/2/2008 1:05:49 PM

Saegertown Pa.

I agree with most of what has bin said to a degree, but there has bin a trend in the last few years that every one should prove there own seeds. I'm not saying that's a bad idea, but if your goal is to give yourself the best odd's to grow the biggest pumpkin in your patch your own seeds might not always give you the best odd's. Any seed with good genetics in the hands of the best growers that have there soil balanced will grow a good size pumpkin. But to give your self the best odds is to find one with good genetics that is special. It's very difficult to compare from years past, there are more and more growers ever year and most of the good growers share how they do things in there patch. In years past the better growers didn't share much. The more growers there are with the right information on how to grow, the better seeds there will be to choose from. In years past I would have said any pumpkin with good genetics is all you need, after this year I would say good genetics isn't enough you need to find those special seeds.

12/2/2008 2:11:15 PM

Indiana

Quinn,
I agree 100%.

I have a lot of data that I have to sift through, and I promise by next spring I will have published it here on BP.

It will shed a lot of light on what your talking about. Those few special seeds......


Tom

12/2/2008 3:38:36 PM

Let me clarify my previuos statement,,while I do grow some of my own crosses, my PB's the last 2 years have come off of other seeds that I have chosen. Going the next step in using those special seeds and adding those genetics to an already existing successful lineage is basically what I was refering to and am also trying to do here in my patch.

That said, Quinn is one of the growers I always see giving patch space to a few of his own crosses and usually setting up the "hot seeds" for the following year.

Keepum coming Quinn, the rest of us are a step behind right now,,,lol

12/2/2008 5:14:55 PM

Massillon, Ohio

Regarding Quinn's comments....No doubt, the top guys will probably grow big from any good genetics. But take me, for instance (& many other growers). In '07, out of 6 plants...each plot having close to the same soil....getting the same products....same techniques I had learned & implemented at that time....all very good genetics. Why did that one pumpkin get to be 1150 lbs & the other 5 in the 700-800 range? I believe what Quinn said....I was lucky enough to find a "special" seed. P.S....it was a 1446 Werner!!

Back to Brook's original question. I believe human nature will prevail. People feel important and close to the action if they have a big name seed. So I think people will continue to buy at the auctions even if the same genetics with generic names are out there.

12/2/2008 6:36:55 PM

Dallas, Oregon

As with Quinn and Tom I'm a believer in that special seed. No two seeds are genetically the same even out of the same pumpkin. I think in the future growers will recognize when they get one of these special seeds growing and will clone it.Twenty years from now I would bet it will be more about clone crosses than seed crosses.

12/2/2008 6:48:29 PM

Deer Park, WI

Those few special seeds.....

Nice job dangling a carrot we cant nibble for 4 months Beach. How about a teaser???

I'd like quinn and others to clarify their points for the purpose of this discussion. Is that "special seed" a proven seed line, such as the 1068 or 1446, or is that seed one of the few lucky 1068's that managed to pop 1400+?

Can wallace or werner take their own seeds and more consistently replicate large weights with their own all-star seed lines vs the exact same cross from another grower?

Im going to challenge Quinn's and Beachy's postulation that the special seed gives you a competetive advantage. I just dont think the evidence is out there. As Brooks originally pointed out- 11 biggest, 11 different seeds. And this rant coming from the guy who originally penned the articles on AG hybrid vigor. I'll enjoy a lovely plate of crow if Beach can show us otherwise. Its an understatement to say we would love to have statistical evidence supporting the influence of genetics on weight. Until then, i firmly reside in the "improved grower practices" camp. Interesting discussion, keep em coming!

12/2/2008 8:30:21 PM

Saegertown Pa.

Joze you need to take a class in how to word something with out offending someone because this is the second time you have done it to me, and I know I didn't go to college but what the hell does postulation mean ? If I read between the lines you are saying I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't have facts to back it up. I never said genetics was the only factor in determining a special seed, a special seed to me would be a 723, 1068, 998.6, 1385, 985 or a seed that most times when you plant it in your patch gives you the biggest pumpkin in your patch or one of you bigger pumpkins. I've grown enough pumpkins to know that some seeds do a lot better than others. you know what I could say a lot more but your Wright I don't know what I'm talking about and will keep my opinions to my self.

12/2/2008 11:18:35 PM

Pleasant Hill, Or

Let me play the Devil's advocate; I believe that the top 11 fruit were grown from 11 different seeds because the growing community is finally accepting that there aren't "special seeds" or at least "magic bullet" seeds. It was the belief 5 years ago you had to have certain few seeds to grow big. Last year the floor fell out of that theory. The top ten fruit were grown by 10 different seeds, a bunch of them were not special. Now this year the top 11 were different seeds. Many of them weren't special either. True, our techniques are improving, but so is our rationale about choosing seeds. There will always be those who have to plant the "bullets" . But more of us are willing to try something different, step outside of the box and give other seeds a try.

I believe that the competitive advantage comes more from other factors like your climate, your understanding of the soil, and how to manage it for maximum growth, grower skill, weather, and luck factors in too. Let me give you a radical example: Do you ever think J.D in Alaska will be able to compete with Joe Jutras in R.I? No offense to J.D., but the climate up there limits his accomplishments. He has grown the best seed in the world to a very respectable weight. It wasn't the seed that held him back, it was the climate. Let him grow that seed somewhere else, like R.I. and he will probably kick everyone's ass! His skills allowed him to grow the largest pumpkin in Alaska. Look at the East Coast Growers, you guys grew lots of great seeds, but weights were down overall because of the poor weather.

I don't think just any seed will consistently grow huge pumpkins, but I think the number of crosses that will, at least equals the number that won't. What matters more is HOW they are grown.

Do you really think that any grower, if given the chance to grow a 1068, or 998 etc would treat it the same as a never-been-heard-of seed in their patch? The perceived "special s

12/2/2008 11:34:09 PM

Pleasant Hill, Or

Whoops-got cut off; Continued

The perceived "special seed" already has the advantage.

Thad

12/2/2008 11:37:27 PM

South East

I Would have to agree with Quinns first post. If your goal is to grow the biggest and most heaviest pumpkin then what you do is get evertything done as perfect as you can. You start with your soil that gets pamperd and tweeked as perfectly as you can. Then you get protection using several fungicides and pesticides so your absolutely sure that your plant wont go down before seasons end. You feed your plant the best possible nutrients, organic of nature, high quality, so what about the seed. If your going for maximum result and take as little chanse as possible then the ovious thing to do would be to pick a seed that had done well before, as good as possible. The chanse of a proven topseed do to well again are bigger then a new one doing it.
And now the pollinator has have produced to.

I think the 11 diffrent seeds in the top 11 are pretty ovious. Since growing techiniques and weights have take a leap forward with the coming of myccorhizea, humic/fulvic acids, microbial innoculants and you name it, the weights have increased to. The sharing of information has caused the the number or topseeds to broaden, to a extend that a larger number of growers is able to grow them. And along with that new " heavy hitters have emerged.
and although many diffrent seeds in there,,many of the ssame growers are in the top to. In my opinion there wil be more and more topseeds to choose from.
If you got room for you own plant them. If they are a great cross, and meet the criteria of a promising seed, try. But in the end, all growers who wonna get the most of out of there season wil have a couple proven top seeds in there line up. Theres a reason for that.
For those who disagree and wont to grow a new seed:
the 897 finders, available at [email protected] (1363 x self) ;)

12/3/2008 12:36:54 AM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

My .000002 cents worth. I'm fairly new here, but spent a long time growing other plants, & doing other genetics work, breeding crosses, working on results, etc.

If the seed doesn't have the right stuff, you're not going to get far. Thanks to many growers & generations of hand selected crosses, there is seed with potential. As well as choices!

Much on exactly what an AG plant needs to grow it's best potential, has been worked out by those that prove it by what they grow. The knowledge & seed are shared, which has contributed greatly to where we are now.

I'll be growing my own-other's too, what I cross this season is for NEXT season, what was done last, is what I'll get this season. It takes more than seed, but if seed doesn't have 'the right stuff' you're not going to get there either. I see it as a trio, soil, weather, seed. You're in the middle, juggling it to get the results.

I can amend the soil, use fertilizers, & deal with the weather to a point, but. Without 'good' seed, I'm growing lettuce or halloween decorations.

I've gotten guff for the generic AG, it did a service-it taught- survived, produced. I'll never consider it wasted patch space because that. I doubt it couldv'e gone 400# with one of the best HH growing it. The 2 other vines, seeds with potential, outdid without trying. It also showed the difference probably 30 years of hand selected crossing has done.

Moral: A 'good seed' is an advantage if you know how to 'use it'. With more growers, more crosses & choices are out there. A proven grower with proven lines, is more likely to get grown than an unknown. The next barrier, the 2000#, the next 'great seeds' such as the 1068, 998, 1041, are out there... It may take a pull back & more work on shape, form and weeding out defects in lines, but. Good seed, good soil, good weather, dedicated grower. Works for me.

12/3/2008 12:47:44 AM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

I think I was writing while Frank posted, I agree, I like both his 337 and his 897, and I'm pretty sure a few are going to see dirt through my efforts.

I grew the 1009 Young and was very pleased with it, enough I'm glad to have found one yet in the seedbank. It gives a good solid wall and a nice shape pumpkin. If you're working on 'pretty' lines, I'd say give that one another look.

12/3/2008 1:04:23 AM

Napa Valley, CA

I think its a matter of balance..... which includes good genetics, healthy soil, improved fertlizing and stimulant application, proper disease control and watering, great weather, good luck and a lot of damn hard work.

I am not surprised to see the top 11 pumpkins from 11 different mother seeds because all of us, more or less, are planting variations of the same improved genetics.
And a lot of us are well balanced.

12/3/2008 3:21:08 AM

Ontario, Canada.

This is certainly a great thread so far and it will be hard for me to expand upon it with my thoughts.

Quinn's points are valid just as are Thadd's and Joe's. We have all seen those special seeds being marched to the scale and recorded within the AGGC, that is proof enough for me. However there are many points in Thadd's theroy that hold water too. Joe's comments ring true to a certain degree also. Cultural practices are a very large issue here in the size of the overall pie.

That being said however one needs to consider the fact that Clubs and BP in particular this message board have lowered the playing field for most growers. Growers can now gain easy access to all the best information at the click of a mouse. The disparity between the haves and the have not's has melted away in a relatively short time.

The education and skill level of the average accomplished grower has grown by leaps and bounds over the last ten years. As grower numbers continue to increase we will see further wide spread numbers of seeds that increase in weight and case size.

I often hear about grower skill levels. Just what is this?
how do you quantify this? Its pretty hard. If you go on desire then we are all 1500 pound growers. Most of us follow the same cultural practices with a few exceptions.

Therefore my major limiting factors are skill, climatic, genetics and soil. Those who are succeeding have the best combination of all four working for them. In my opinnion the last major hurdle we face is in the area of soil science and its interrelationship in supporting the growth of the AGP. I don't believe there has been nearly enough work done in this area. Is sand better than clay or loam or any other way around the issue. What percetange of OM works best? What should the CEC be? Subsoiling or Drainage? Until these and other questions are answered the debate will go on forever.

12/3/2008 9:44:41 AM

Deer Park, WI

Good lord, the lack of context in internet forums makes me want to avoid these like the plague. Quinn, i have all the respect in the world for you as a grower. Im sorry my vocabulary has led to miscommunication, not the intent. For the record, Postulation: "a declaration of something self-evident; something that can be assumed as the basis for argument" And no, there was no assumption on my behalf that you dont know what you are talking about. Everyone's opinion carries the same weight, no one here is better than anyone else. Final comment- the questions i posed to you and beachy were not intended in a judgemental tone, these are curiosities I have to perpetuate further discussion on the topic. Shall we move on?


Im a scientist by training. I have been brainwashed to look for evidence to support theories. Beachy dangled a carrot that im intrigued about. Couple Quinn's comments regarding having grown lots of seeds and observing that some are better than others with the prospect of Tom's study, and I get real excited that we may something more than good logic to base our theories on.

12/3/2008 10:29:44 AM

Indiana

crap, now I need to hurry up on this. Prolly wont happen in a hurry with the wife.

My intent is not to take any credit away from Quinn. Basically what I am going to do is put a numerical representation on what has made Quinn the best seed picker in the world. Him and I discussed it last winter, and I dropped the ball on finishing the research. It is currently missing on my parents computer, but it was done for 2007 seeds, and I will do it again and this time publish it on 2008 seeds. I just have to find it or rebuild it which is not difficult.

In the mean time enjoy that carrot Joze...LOL I knew we could bring you out of hiding.

Tom

12/3/2008 10:55:47 AM

Colorado

Back to brooks original observation.top 11 pumpkins,11 different seeds.Quinns observation that there are seeds(special)that consistently grow monsters.This hobby is determined by genetic expression of the seeds we plant.There were a ton of potentially great crosses made this year.Some that look good on paper will pan out some will dissapoint(genetic expression didnt jive with expectation) .thats what makes this hobby interesting.Kind of like picking a winner at the horse tract.this hobby is part scientist.part being in touch with nature and part gardening intuition.Sorry rambled way two much-lol

12/3/2008 11:45:14 AM

Colorado

by the way-quinns the king this year,imho.Because he works hard at it.Lives in a good climate.Knows what he doing. and is a good observer of the seed lines.

12/3/2008 12:00:54 PM

Knopp, Germany

i am amazed at how many people "know" other growers. if you look at this thread, there are growers from all over mother earth, they are doctors, farmers, scientist and others(that is me). amazing how many people know each other..i do not even know my neighbor.

12/3/2008 1:04:54 PM

Gays Mills, Wisconsin

Next year someone plants some of their own seeds (from one pumpkin) that all go over 1700 pounds and average 40% heavy. All other pumpkins grown from this seed are over 30% heavy and 1000 pounds. My guess is someone has the next "magic bullet". Don't give up on genetics being the key to the heavier weights because they will be in the long run.

12/3/2008 1:21:59 PM

My short list for 2009. 1161 Rodonis, 1385 Jutras, 985 Werner, 998.6 Pukos, 1363 Werner. Basically, the top producers for Quinn in 2007. Case closed.

12/3/2008 2:10:20 PM

Midway, UT

This next week I'll be releasing the report from the 2008 Pumpkin Growers Survey to those people who took the survey and it will be included with the RMGVG newsletter. The results from the survey will speak for themselves but one interesting observation that you see in the report is that heavy hitters most consistently do the same things in their growing practices that 1,000 pound growers and growers with pumpkins that are less than 1,000 pounds don't do as consistently. From the survey you see that genetics has it's place (HH grow the highest percentage of proven seeds) but there are clearly growing practices that come into play in producing a big one. This is pretty similar to what many are saying in this thread but I find it interesting that a mass survey found the same thing. If you are interested in taking the Pumpkin Growers Survey so you can get the final report you can do so at www.wedpagedesigns.com/pumpkinsurvey.html

12/3/2008 3:34:44 PM

Colorado

Off course I dont "know" owen.Just guessing

12/3/2008 4:24:30 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Seeds matter and growers matter. If I were to put a number on it, I'd say that seeds matter 30% of the total and growers matter 70% of the total.

But what we currently have, lacking any sort of silver bullet seed, is a situation where all the seeds are great, and they're mostly the same. So in reality seeds matter even less than the 30% because we're on a level playing field assuming a grower can obtain one of these many seeds (even more than the top 11 cited here). Good luck and may the best grower win!

12/3/2008 8:30:26 PM

Puyallup, WA

Cliff...Where does Mother Nature fit in? Weather was a major factor is several areas of the USA this Summer and Fall. I am sure it was the major factor as to why the World Record was not reset this year.

12/5/2008 1:24:09 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Was our misstep solely weather related? In my area the weather was fantastic. But all that matters is the best growing areas, and they must have had a bad year. But that doesn't account for the 11 different seeds for the top 11.

But... let's see if I can put this into words... because we don't have a world record, we also don't have one super hot seed that we all point to. Whether that is purely psychological or not... I don't know. Like I say, I'm more of a "thinker" than a "grower". I do think that seeds will get marginally better from here on out. But most of the top seeds we have now, they've been so mixed up..... cross-cross-cross-cross......... that really they're mostly the same.

12/5/2008 10:36:30 AM