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Rexburg, Idaho

This question is spawned from my frustration in growing pumpkins that are consistently "under the charts". Over the years I have 30 pumpkins over 600 pounds. Their average is 5.1% below the charts. I have only grown 5 pumpkins that actually weighed over the charts and one did so by a whopping 21%.
Granted I have a fettish for orange pumpkins which, I believe, tend to go light anyway.
Is this a result of my desire for growing orange pumpkins? ie caused by the genetics of the seeds I have been planting. Or is this an evironmental issue? It could be soil, temps, nutriets etc.
I realize that the answer is probably multifactorial but I would be interested in your input.

11/2/2008 12:43:39 PM

Colorado

in my opinion, you can give an orange seed the best environment possible, and its still not going to have the wall thickness of a 1041 McKie.

I think the best possibility to get the orange that is desired with the "over the charts" is the 904 Stelts. Big, orange, and heavy to the charts progeny. It's on my short list for next year.

11/2/2008 1:17:54 PM

Jericho Vermont

I think that environment can pay a large factor but genetics is the over all rule. We grew a seed from the same pumpkin in the same exact spot two years in a row. Last year was much drier and we were fortunate to get a 1009 pounder that went around 1% heavy(basically on chart). This year we had pollination issues and didn't get one pollinated until July 27th from the same seed as we grew in 2007. This years pumpkin came in 29% Heavy at 695 pounds. Not sure if all of the % heavy variance can be genetics from the same seed. We did get about twice as much rain fall this year. When we opened it up the shoulders were a little over 13 inches thick and the blossum end was over 6 inches thick. I think the weird summer some how added thickness and weight above the natural % heavy variance for the seed or the seed was just significantly different than the others that had been planted. We crossed this with a 670 Daigle so who knows what next year will bring.
John
John

11/2/2008 3:17:11 PM

Corryton, TN

Great question Brian. Its puzzling to me after looking at some of the numbers from the last couple of years, how some growers have higher %'s on all their seeds. The same seeds that many other people have grown. And they do it repeatedly!! I can't believe they are just lucky enough to get the good seed. Do they work harder or are they just more experienced, knowing when to work and what to do? What to add and when? I'd love to have any one of them for a neighbor but I fear they would soon tire of all my questions!

11/2/2008 3:45:29 PM

South East

hows your watering? maybe more frequent and heavier watering would increase your chanses on a heavy fruit.

11/2/2008 4:10:56 PM

Germany

hm i think its most the genetic..
But why??

Well.. This year i did 3 plants:

1207 Young
1385 Jutras
1556 Werner

results:
682 Rupf 08 (1207 Young x 1385 Jutras) +16.04% heavy
587 Rupf 08 (1385 Jutras x 1207 Young) -7.2% light
579 Rupf 08 (1556 Werner x 1385 Jutras) +6.5% heavy

all 3 plants had same soil and water???
why did 1385 go light? maybe because the leaves got more damage by the many storms we had in Germany..
The leavestem thickness was not the same as 1207 and 1556.
So the plants lost more leaves than the other 2.
But finally we will never know it..

11/2/2008 5:01:56 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

There was a thread, eons ago that talked about too much Magnesium and not enough Calcium would cause fruit to go light. I don't know if much came of it, though.

11/2/2008 5:06:56 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Wall thickness is one thing, a good thing in fact. Flesh density is another. That is, what if we took various fruits and cut a 10cm^3 section of each. Make them exactly 10cm cubed. Then weigh. I wonder if the flesh has the same water content as another. A small difference in this could make for large differences overall.

(Well, I like to think more than I actually do this sort of thing.)

My 964 Wolf which went 15% heavy had normal thickness in the walls, I believe. But it had no cracks or thin spots. That was an odd-ball for me as well. Most of mine go light.

As much as it pains me to say it, my gut reaction is that most "true orange" fruit go light. It really pains me to say it, because I prefer them as well.

11/2/2008 5:17:00 PM

Rexburg, Idaho

I have noticed the same, that some growers seem to produce pumpkins that are consistently heavy. That is part of the frustration. I think we all blame genetics but why is there such variability between the seeds of the same pumpkin? There must be an environemental componant to it. What is it? Watering? Micronutrients? Night time temps?
I overhead water. In smaller doses. In part to help keep the plants cool during the hot dry summer days to eliminate leaf burn but also to avoid in wide extremes that have been attributed to the formation of Dill rings.
The magnesium theory doesn't work in my patch as my soil, tissue and core samples from all three were low. Is that the problem?

11/2/2008 6:30:05 PM

Midway, UT

There is what I believe to be a human factor and then a host of genetic/environmental factors when it comes to heavy/light. The human factor comes into play because we are in a sport that is about weight so our perceptions around heavy/light are a result of built up anxiety. It really isn’t that important but we (my self included) make heavy/light out to be important because we spend a whole growing season trying to guess our pumpkin’s weight and potential until it gets on the scale. Heavy/light is a perceived value only because the first 5 seconds on a scale determines success/failure and our great expectations are dashed or we find jubilation because things were either better or worse than what we thought they would be. My pumpkin went 755# this year. I thought it would be about 730 so I was pleased. If it had gone 699 I would have been depressed. If we all grew on scales like Pukos and others have done we would realize that heavy/light really means very little and that weight is all that matters.

When it comes to genetic/environmental factors I don't think you know what they are until you get a pumpkin over 1,000 pounds. Until you get a sumo wrestler to over 300 pounds you don't know what truly gets him fat. Who cares about a 125 pound sumo wrestler that went heavy to the charts? There are big boned people and small boned people. I think pumpkins carry the same genes for heavy/light. I think you can feed pumpkins the right stuff in the right amounts and some will get fat and some won’t get that thick. That is the genetic factor coming into play but being influenced by the environment (in this case the food). No silver bullet as I see it. Both genes and environment coming into play with a lot of factors influencing both. This doesn’t answer the question but I hope puts some scope around it.

11/2/2008 8:21:52 PM

Rhode Island

I appologize for tooting my own horn but in the soon to be released O.A.F. publication "Dicks Tips 2" there are several pages written by Ron Wallace that covers soil education and adjustment from soup to nuts.
a lot of these adjustments can later in the season prove very beneficial.

Ron discusses all the factions up to understanding the soil report, how to balance soil,etc.

Also a great writing regarding spray programs for insects and disease

At this point there are 15 chapters written

In reply to the question of what causes percent over ,right on and under chart? Four factors come to mind

1. Is the pumpkin being taped correctly?
2. How is your soil? in balance or out of wack?
3. How was your weather. sunny and mild all year? cool?
crappy? it all comes into play
4. What type of fertalizer applications do you make early,
mid and late season?
Also keep in mid that not every seed from the same mother will produce like results. shape,color and ability differest from one seed to another.

thanks

pap

11/2/2008 9:48:57 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

>>not every seed from the same mother will produce like results

This is very true, and we should all try harder to remember this!

11/2/2008 10:54:26 PM

Dummer Twp - Ontario

I'm a firm believer in getting someone else to tape the pumpkin before it gets weighed and this is a requirement at GPC weighoffs, the pumpkins seem to magically get larger each time we measure them or are they really? This is just one factor that is truly human error associated and when taken out of the equation you can concentrate on the others mentioned above.

Kirk

11/3/2008 6:25:32 AM

ordinary,VA

good post !

Kirk we had three people measure the same pumpkin at our weigh off, all coming up with different numbers?

11/3/2008 9:09:12 AM

Rexburg, Idaho

Measuring can certainly be an issue, we saw that in an extreme fashion this weighoff season.
I understand what is being said about the percieved value of a heavy pumpkin. Perhaps heavy pumpkins are less likely to split but I have not found this to be true.
If I narrow my results down to the 4 pumpkins I have grown over 1000 pounds they still average 6.2% under the charts. (range 1%-12 below the charts) But my question is why do most my pumpkin go light year in and year out.
I will be doing my own experiment next year and planting at least half of my plants from seeds that typically produce heavy pumpkins.
I guess another question along these same lines--Is it easier to produce a 1000 pound (or 1100 or 1500) pumpkin from a seed that produces heavy pumpkins or from a seed that produces light pumpkins?

11/3/2008 9:09:39 AM

Western NY

a few things -

There are very few growers out there who have done as well as you have growing solid orange pumpkins, even if you don't account for your climate. Most folks grow an assortment of colors, so they don't get hit (intentionally or not) with a consistent batch of light pumpkins which would make them question their soil conditions.

Part of what we're seeing with these pumpkins is their ability to put on better internal weight late in the season. If you're getting hit with frost or otherwise slowing down earlier than most, that will account for 1 or 2%.

From what i've seen looking at soil tests, it can have an impact, but not much, and it certainly wasn't conclusive evidence. Perhaps another 1 to 2% to add in there.

Maybe a few little things here and there adding up to something that would put you back on a zero balance average, but the only factor that ties them all together is planting nice orange seeds. Like a previous suggestion, I would recommend the 904 Stelts. Maybe put a 1334 Daletas in a spot where you had your worst ever % light, and see what happens if you don't mind experimenting with something that may have the color of cement.

11/3/2008 9:56:24 AM

Belgium Europe

"Brian C:'I guess another question along these same lines--Is it easier to produce a 1000 pound (or 1100 or 1500) pumpkin from a seed that produces heavy pumpkins or from a seed that produces light pumpkins?'"

It's the same imo.If your soil, protection, watering,plantmanagement etc. is ready for let's say a 1200lbs pumpkin, a 1200lb pumpkin it will be.If it's a light producing seed your fruit will be bigger, if it's a heavy producing seed your fruit will be smaller.That's all.

Another question might be : Is it trickier to grow a 1500lb'er from a light producing seed than from a heavy producer? In this case i tend more to answer yes, because a smaller 1500 lb'er has more chance to make it to scale than a bigger one.

11/3/2008 10:42:52 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Brian, if you start growing the bland colored thick pumpkins, I'll never catch up to you! lol

11/3/2008 10:56:36 AM

Boulder County Colorado USA planet Earth

I have produced a lot of over the charts. but since they arent over 500 i dont brag much.

I wonder if its the enorment even my orange went heavy this yr.

11/3/2008 10:56:53 AM

Joliet, IL

genetic. i had 2 pumpkins, close in size with only a 3" ott difference. the 1041 mckie pumpkin was 15.4% heavy and the 1446 werner pumpkin went 1.5% light. they were planted back to back in the best spots in my patch this year. 10% of the people guessed right when asked which one do think weighs more. the lighter one even looked heavier than the heavier one. i had to choose which one to be the official entry at the weigh off and went with the 1041 for reason...genetics. i agree with cliff about density. wall thickness is one thing, but density of the actual flesh is the key. it is like comparing a hardwood tree to balsa wood. like it or not, the more orange a pumpkin is usually means lighter with my experience at the weigh offs.

11/3/2008 2:48:44 PM

Joliet, IL

also, what andy says makes a lot of sense. besides just environmental reasons for shutting down, look to pumpkins that grow for longer periods of time. my 1041 mckie pumpkin kept growing all the way until cutting it the day before the weigh off. it was 94 days old and still growing. my 1446 pumpkin shut down earlier and barely had any growth at all ott after 60 days. finding pumpkins with genetically heavy percentage weights that also have a tendency to keep putting on decent ott rates after 75 days old is the key in my book for heavy. also just look at most early picked state fair pumpkins for percent heavy and see that those picked at day 60 or less usually go lighter to the chart.

11/3/2008 2:56:32 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

I know this thread is getting old, but I want to add one more thing... (there is no stopping a "thinker").

"Skin thickness, leading to water retention."

This seems to fit the criteria. Let me explain.

On my 964 Wolf fruit, and on many of the plain colored fruit, if you really dig into the skin a bit, you find that there are actually layers of skin of various colors. There is an outer layer, a "clear coat" if you will, that is many time just that, a mostly translucent layer. Then there is a white-ish salmon layer. Then.... on many fruit, including mine this year, there is a dark red layer of skin! After my fruit had been picked for several weeks, with kids climbing up on top, etc., some of these layers flaked off. It was plan to see the layers, including the deep red layer.

So...

Would more layers of skin lead to more moisture retention in the flesh?

Those fruit that are purely bright orange lack these layers, and would more readily "dry out". And, in a desert climate like Brian and I have, this problem would be exaggerated.

What about cantalouped fruit? Think about it. That's just extra thickness, preserving the internal moisture.

11/4/2008 5:04:58 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Sigh, typos... I really did try to proofread.

"It was plain to see the layers, including the deep red layer."

Am I on to something, or just flaky?

11/4/2008 5:09:24 PM

Rexburg, Idaho

It may explain why a pumpkin might loose weight faster after being harvested. Does it correlate with heavy vs light pumpkins?--I have no idea.

11/4/2008 6:15:11 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

I'm thinking that it can dry out, to some degree, throughout the growing season.

11/4/2008 6:39:07 PM

genetics vs environment, the original questions here,

personally I feel the genetics in growing orange fruit is the problem, promoted by growers repeatedly using the same genetics that have consitantly gone light at the scales

I know that some of us want a big orange fruit in Oct, but if we don't try to improve the lineage by adding some heavy genetics to the orange then we are never going to find that orange and heavy combination we are hoping for.

Of course then that seed has to see dirt a few times to get an idea of what it can do, therein lies the catch 22 here. Not enough folks are willing to try a "new" orange cross with limits on plants in the patch. There are a few lines out there that throw fruit that do go even to the charts but are not getting planted enough to gain the respect of the "orange" community, imo

If you think it's environment, I like Andy's suggestion of growing a seed that seems to consistantly throw heavy fruit, that should give you a good idea of your situation.

11/4/2008 7:44:31 PM

Western NY

Cliff hit a very important point - these odd density problems.

Most people never notice it - I know I didn't until I started sending some to the carver, then actually trying that method of carving myself. The bright orange smooth ones are by far the easier ones to carve. The white cantalouped ones are a major pain in comparison.

As an example, my 1407 seemed to have an unusual grain to it that Pat just couldn't cut. This has shown up in the offspring, some worse than others. Amazingly, he thinks that the ones I give him that are over the chart are actually thinner, but more dense than the orange ones.

Here is one from this year:

http://grumpkins.com/heywood/index.php

From the 1445 Marsh (1407 x 695 Handy) - The first one he's had that was flawless inside. 10% over chart, but not noticeably thicker, just more dense.

11/4/2008 7:59:37 PM

Long Island,New York

603Muller has always been beautiful orange for me and always 10% or more heavy.

11/4/2008 9:19:37 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

I agree with Glenn about the 603 Muller. I've brought two to the scales(1041 and 753.5), and they both went around 10% heavy. Maybe being it's a selfed seed, it is more consistant? Others to consider for orange and heavy to the chart:
955 Brinkley...I grew an 824 lber. on it, and it was around 10% heavy and shiney med/dark orange.
769 Lombardi...another selfed beauty. Grew an 1157 lber. this year.
641 Andrews 06(670 X 603) and 364.1 Andrews 06(603 X 670)...I'm consedering growing one or both of these next year. There are some nice 2007 Andrews color crosses that could also do well.

11/4/2008 9:55:55 PM

Colorado

genetics determines the potential of the pumpkin .the wall thickness and flesh density are controlled by genetics.If the grower(soil,pruning,watering fertilizing etc.) and climate dont do a ideal job then the pumpkin will not reach its potential

11/7/2008 12:28:25 AM